The simple fact is that we are so confident in the quality of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook that we believe the large majority of "check it out and see at the cheaper price" customers will be convinced to buy the hardcover and lots of our other products after getting a look at (and perhaps even using) the PDF.
You guys have every right to be and the book looks gorgeous. $10 is a no brainer. Times are really tight and I have to be really careful with all my purchases and all my group plays now is 4e; however, getting that sneak peek may make me have to put some money aside for it even though I won't get a lot of use out of it. I think it's brilliant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seankreynolds
Very mature of you, aboyd.
And I'd like to applaud everyone in this thread, everyone's been level-headed on all sides of the discussion.
Hey Sean! I hope all is well with you. It's been a long time...
__________________ Jeffrey J. Visgaitis
Creative Director The Inner Circle
Twowolves, you honestly can't see why brick and mortar stores are upset?
Again, you keep assuming that there will be no lost sales due to the parent company selling this? This isn't Amazon which while they (game store owers) hope WOTC would toss over a bridge they understand the reality of.
This $10 PDF is akin to WOTC decidiing to sell MTGO packs not at the MSRP but at pennies (Gencon and GAMA has many "game store owner" panels and trust me, when MTGO was to first go live, there was much complaints/threats from the store owners of WOTC undercutting them at such panels).
I think it's much more like WotC offering a copy of the d20 SRD for free and also a copy of the d20 SRD that includes art for $9.99.
An electronic copy has to compete with other electronic copies first and foremost. What other electronic copies are available? Illegal pdfs for $0 and web sites like pfogc.com for $0. Frankly, I think the number of people who will switch from buying the $50 hardcover to buying the $10 legal pdf instead of using one of the $0 options is pretty small.
They should sell classified ads in the back page of the PDF to prominent game stores (and a link to a Paizo website store locator) with a suggestion from Paizo to patronize those locations when the hardcopy hits the shelves (and ask the customers to be sure and mention how they came to buy the hardcopy after owning the PDF). There's no reason the pdf and hardcopy sales cannot engender a symbiotic relationship.
BTW, Well done on setting the price point for the pdf at a tempting and reasonable level! Huzzah!
We're basically an echo chamber here since I suspect that enworld is slanted heavily towards PDF wanting consumers/slightly adverse to dead tree versions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Mona
I'm interested to hear why you think EN World users would be "slightly averse" to print editions of products? That's certainly not my assumption.
To echo Erik Mona AllisterH, where on earth do you get the assumption that some of us here are adverse to dead tree versions? While I have a bunch of subscriptions to Pazio with their products, and they come with PDF's, I have yet to really use the PDF's at all. Its a nice add on, but I'm print all the way.....most of the PDF's are on my account unopened and undownloaded.
I think it's much more like WotC offering a copy of the d20 SRD for free and also a copy of the d20 SRD that includes art for $9.99.
An electronic copy has to compete with other electronic copies first and foremost. What other electronic copies are available? Illegal pdfs for $0 and web sites like pfogc.com for $0. Frankly, I think the number of people who will switch from buying the $50 hardcover to buying the $10 legal pdf instead of using one of the $0 options is pretty small.
Yeah, there will always be pirates and those who download pirated material, but to think the majority of people are the kinds of thieves that would obtain an illegal PDF for $0 vs. paying $10 for legal one is just wrong. Most of those pirates downloading free stuff will never actually use or play it in most cases.
Actual players wanting to play the game will by in large make a legal purchase before doing something illegal. And those are the only people that matter. As for pirates, the hell with them on anything.
I wouldn't buy a pair of illegal athletic shoes, stolen furniture or stolen anything if I can help it. I would never obtain gaming material illegally, when what I want is available at reasonable prices.
I think Pirates who actually use what they download for free is actually a pretty small number - so your point is pointless.
In short, pirates are scum, who cares what they think?
Your point is well taken, but I think it's incorrect to refer to this as a loss leader.
I think (and I admit I may be wrong) that technically a loss leader is a product sold below its actual production cost (for example, a razor or an XBox, in hopes of selling razor blades or software).
As the work is done and a PDF product has no actual production cost, selling the PDF at almost any price does not actually incur any loss for Paizo.
Again, your point is taken. It's certainly a loss leader strategy.
I think Pirates who actually use what they download for free is actually a pretty small number - so your point is pointless.
My point is that an electronic format like a (legal) PDF is mostly competing with other electronic formats (like pirated PDFs AND online rules web sites -- the part of my post that you ignored for whatever reason). You`re welcome to try to prove to the world that electronic copies of the rules really do cut into sales of dead tree rulebooks. I haven`t heard any compelling evidence to support that so far, though.
They should sell classified ads in the back page of the PDF to prominent game stores (and a link to a Paizo website store locator) with a suggestion from Paizo to patronize those locations when the hardcopy hits the shelves (and ask the customers to be sure and mention how they came to buy the hardcopy after owning the PDF). There's no reason the pdf and hardcopy sales cannot engender a symbiotic relationship.
We are working on a spiffy retail locator on our site, though it probably won't go live for a couple of months after the release of the Core Rulebook. Sadly we have too many task and too few programmers, but it is a very high priority.
I think this is great. I was planning on buying the book of course, and having the PDF as well is nice as a convenience. I didn't want it bad enough to buy the book at full price + shipping from paizo.com to get it for free, but for $10 I'll definitely buy it as an add-on.
To me that's the real value of a PDF - it's a convenient add-on to a print product, so you can quickly search, print out specific bits (like cutting and pasting spells into a cheat sheet for your character), and the like.
My point is that an electronic format like a (legal) PDF is mostly competing with other electronic formats (like pirated PDFs AND online rules web sites -- the part of my post that you ignored for whatever reason). You`re welcome to try to prove to the world that electronic copies of the rules really do cut into sales of dead tree rulebooks. I haven`t heard any compelling evidence to support that so far, though.
Sorry, had no idea what pfogc.com was - thought it might be a torrent site, since you mentioned illegal PDFs just prior to that - I didn't miss the point, just didn't understand you meant something else. If you'd have said "online rules web sites like Pfogc.com" then I would have understood and not included that in my counter point.
My counter point never mentions that electronic copes do cut into printed work rulesets - I believe the complete opposite (you said that, not me). I don't think there is any compelling evidence to support that.
I was just commenting on your illegal PDFs as being competition in your post.
Still I think a $10 PDF for a $50 book is a great deal.
No reason to even bring up pirates - as they don't count for anything.
I have to agree that PDFs of the books are simply an add on for me when it comes to games I play. It's nice when not playing and don't want to drag the books around being able to just pull something up on a computer to answer questions or make a quick plan. That's about all I really use it for as I start getting headaches if I read on screen for too long.
__________________ DM4Hire
"What doesn't kill you will probably turn you into a vampire, a werewolf, or a zombie." - Myself
"This is Sky Captain. I'm on my way." - Joe "Sky Captain" Sullivan
Enworld strikes me as more PDF-friendly than say posters on rpg.net or WOTC. If given a choice between a PDF and a hardback, the number of PDF buyers will be closer to half and half among enworld which is higher than what I expect on say a general science fiction board.
You should start a poll on that! Personally, I would be surprised if the numbers that actually chose PDF over print would be high at all (although very possibly well over the percentage at rpg.net or WotC).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Mona
We are working on a spiffy retail locator on our site, though it probably won't go live for a couple of months after the release of the Core Rulebook. Sadly we have too many task and too few programmers, but it is a very high priority.
Have you considered something like a decorative wire rack??
You should start a poll on that! Personally, I would be surprised if the numbers that actually chose PDF over print would be high at all (although very possibly well over the percentage at rpg.net or WotC).
Have you considered something like a decorative wire rack??
That's what almost got Bigwig. Thank El-ahrairah that Fiver was able to . . .
Your point is well taken, but I think it's incorrect to refer to this as a loss leader.
I think (and I admit I may be wrong) that technically a loss leader is a product sold below its actual production cost (for example, a razor or an XBox, in hopes of selling razor blades or software).
As the work is done and a PDF product has no actual production cost, selling the PDF at almost any price does not actually incur any loss for Paizo.
Again, your point is taken. It's certainly a loss leader strategy.
Now we're getting into the question of how much each part of a print product cost.
How much of a product goes towards paying the editors and layout guys and the artists...
While I'm no expert, and I can offer suggested costs for the development of a single adventure module - since I'm working on my own publication, I am running face on to these costs for a module.
The module I'm looking to create will probably have 25,000 words in it. Had I been hiring a writer, I could expect to pay anything from 3.5 cents to a nickel a word. At 3.5 cents for 25,000 words, that's $875 for just the written part. (Since the primary author is the publisher I am collaborating with, this "cost" is covered in his participation of the project, a cost I am not incurring.)
Since I'm a pro fantasy cartographer, I understand that side of the publishing business very well. My product will have about 12 maps, had I been paying a cartographer to do this, I could expect to pay at least $50 per map, so the map cost is about $600. (Since I'm a mapper, I'm mapping my own for free.)
I'm also playing the role of art director on my project. Because, this is my first publication, many of the artist's are giving me "deals" on art prices, but they've also told me what they normally charge. Cover art, depending on complexity could be anywhere from $150 to $1000, interior art for full color is anywhere between $100 to $500 for a full page color illustration, smaller pieces of art (quarter page, half page) is anywhere from $50 to $150, and B/W illustrations from $25 to $100 each. Art is a great cost in the production of an RPG product. Looking at the above, I can say, by getting deals, I'll have only $500 invested in art, but in other conditions I could easily have spent $2500 or more.
So looking at writing, cartography and illustration only, I've got a sum upwards to $4,000. And we still haven't even calculated the cost of editing, proof reading, and page-layout, all based on hourly rates and variable cost per hour depending on quality and experience.
This describes the cost of single adventure module. If I were talking splat book, the cost is exponentially higher - more maps, more art, more writing, thus more editing, page-layout, etc.
Once all that is done and calculated, generating a PDF is no cost in of itself, well minimal actually, time to crunch making the file I suppose.
Maybe some of my numbers are off, but this is what I'm encountering and I'm actually working to publish a 3 part campaign arc - the above costs are real, at least in what I'm paying.
Now we're getting into the question of how much each part of a print product cost.
How much of a product goes towards paying the editors and layout guys and the artists...
Not really. Actually, not at all.
PDFs are only a loss if they are losing money on the sales.
I think we can very easily assume that they will make a profit on sales of PDFs at $9.99.
Making a profit precludes the idea of a loss leader.
It is certainly interesting to wonder how the profit of a pdf compares to the end profit from a hard back. But that isn't really meaningful to the discussion because the assumption that every pdf equals a lost hardback sell is silly. There will be some instances of that of course. But there will also be people who would have never bought the hardback, but will hand over $10 for the pdf. And even some who will end up buying hardbacks also once they see it.
__________________ It was one of those nights when you turn out the lights, and everything comes into view
The combat system should be based on the world design. The world design should not be based on the combat system.
My 4 year old ties a towel to her shoulders and pretends to be a superhero. Roleplaying is not between the covers of a book.
As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
"I just want D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal." - A 4E fan
"I've got to have all that, but I require intelligent conversation as well." - Me
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