Lots? Ah, I see. And how many of these lots did you print? And how many books were in each lot?
I would guess somewhere between 50 and 500,000 books were printed. Just a hunch!
__________________ "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth,
and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
Even though The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills, rest assured James Oliver Rigney, Jr. will NEVER be forgotten.
Congrats to the folks at Paizo! While I'm solidly in the 4e camp and have no interest in Pathfinder, I've always enjoyed Paizo adventures, and seeing them be successful is a good thing for the industry. Selling through a first print run quickly is an accomplishment, and deserves praise. So congrats Paizo!
__________________ Gothmog
________________________________________________
"I feel like I've been mauled by Jesus." -Frye, Futurama.
Can anyone think of a good reason why Paizo would not just state what the print run was?
Because sales figures are confidential? We don't share our budgets, our operating costs, our profit margins, or our print costs, why would we share our print runs?
__________________ Joshua J. Frost
Events Manager
Paizo Publishing®, LLC
That was unnecessary. Gee--I wonder how the edition war keeps on percolating?
Kudos to James for the reasoned response, though, and a hearty congrats to Paizo. In one of my weekly groups, we're over 50 sessions into our Rise of the Runelords campaign using the Beta rules, and I can't wait to get my hands on my (preordered) book.
Pot meet kettle.
It was just dry humour. I know that kind can be terribly hard to get, and I must admit it translate poorly at times to written form. But maybe for a second, if you stop being so god damn sensitive and expect the worst from anyone who plays D&D instead of Pathfinder, maybe you will be better off.
As for edition wars, hardly. I like Paizo. I buy somewhere between 50 and 80% of all their Pathfinder products. Making war on them seems a little silly, no?
But then again I bet you had made up your mind almost before you read my post. "Gee Wiz, this guy looks like a huge 4e fan, he must absolutely hate Pathfinder - no way he is trying to make a funny".
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Because sales figures are confidential? We don't share our budgets, our operating costs, our profit margins, or our print costs, why would we share our print runs?
"Confidential" is just restating the question, not answering it. Yes, you don't share the information, IE you hold it in confidence.
And I also know you don't share other data. But, I don't know of anyone asking for that other data. Nor do I think the set of reasons for not sharing each of those items is the same for all of those items. Regardless, I'm wondering why you won't share this particular data point.
What is the good reason for holding this information in confidence, given your fans seem to really want to know the number? What is the potential harm of saying "We printed X number of copies, and they all sold out"; as opposed to what's already been said: "we printed more than 10K copies, and less than 50K, and it's a lot of copies, and they sold out"?
We know the benefit of saying the number - your fans seem to want to know, and they are fans that have an appreciation for openness.
So, what is the harm in sharing this particular data point this time?
Because sales figures are confidential? We don't share our budgets, our operating costs, our profit margins, or our print costs, why would we share our print runs?
Perhaps because it would make your report of a sold-out preorder seem like something more than a manufactured piece of marketing? It is hard to avoid this conclusion of course:
"We thought we had printed enough to last us at least until the end of this year, but skyrocketing demand from our customers and distributors has us reprinting already," Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo said. "We have a healthy amount heading to Gen Con, but we think even those will go fast, so don't delay in picking up your copy!"
"The phenomenal support of the constantly growing community of Pathfinder RPG players has been a staggering sight to behold," said Paizo Publisher Erik Mona. "To sell out a hugely ambitious print run before the release date just goes to show what an immense audience this game will enjoy in the years to come."
I suppose the first comment is a much better spin than "We didn't have enough confidence in our product!" or "We can't make good sales projections!"
The second is an interesting prediction about the future; it almost seems ironic, given the first.
Yours is not the only company to do this kind of thing, of course, but considering how so many fans laud the "opennness" and "appreciation of customers" that seems central to Paizo's business practice, "we don't release those figures" is pretty ad hoc. Is this really a vital company secret? When the beta was released, you showed no such reticence:
"When we announced our intentions to stick with the 3.5 rules via the Open Game License, many internet pundits declared us fools for not going with the flow of the new 4th edition," said Paizo's Publisher, Erik Mona. "The 25,000 individual download threshold suggests to me that we were right to identify a stable audience for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and the response to our Open Playtest has been nothing short of phenomenal."
Of course, I don't like this kind of marketing when anyone does it. Who cares if it sold out when we don't know how many sold? Who would make anything other than the most broadly speculative and borderline spurious claims based on such vague information? It was the same when Wizards did this for 3e, and 4e. Perhaps if companies hit numbers they thought were worth noting, those figures would be cited. Things like "over a million people play D&D each month". Meh.
Not that that means Pathfinder is a bad game. It is based on a good game, after all. I wish I could just get the art, though.
Wow. I'm reminded once again why so many people outside our hobby have such a poor opinion of gamers.
I truly don't understand the need for people, in what should be a thread celebrating the success of a well loved company and a positive sign for the industry, to insult or belittle the people in question. Just once, what's wrong with all of us--4E-players, Pathfinder-players, whoever--just saying "Way to go, guys"? You don't need the numbers. You don't have any right to the numbers. And frankly, the numbers don't matter. If it's sold well enough for Paizo to proclaim it a success, then for all it matters to any of us, it's a success. And even as a die-hard "4on," I couldn't be happier for them.
I really, really don't get it.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
Wow. I'm reminded once again why so many people outside our hobby have such a poor opinion of gamers.
I truly don't understand the need for people, in what should be a thread celebrating the success of a well loved company and a positive sign for the industry, to insult or belittle the people in question. Just once, what's wrong with all of us--4E-players, Pathfinder-players, whoever--just saying "Way to go, guys"? You don't need the numbers. You don't have any right to the numbers. And frankly, the numbers don't matter. If it's sold well enough for Paizo to proclaim it a success, then for all it matters to any of us, it's a success. And even as a die-hard "4on," I couldn't be happier for them.
I really, really don't get it.
+1
Good on them, same as I say good on WotC who were happy with their sell out of the PHB. I'm very happy when any TTRPG related business does well, I mean we are a weird minority so we gotta stick together!
If it was Blizzard announcing another whoppa profit of their life sapping, undie dancing MMO (++SPIT++), that would be a different thing!
Disclosure: I DM (and really enjoy) 4E, I intend to DM PFRPG next campaign (and I guess I'll enjoy it as much as I did when I played 3E and 2E and 1E and BECMI and MERP and Ars Magica and LotR RPG and Harn and ... you get the picture)
Wow. I'm reminded once again why so many people outside our hobby have such a poor opinion of gamers.
I truly don't understand the need for people, in what should be a thread celebrating the success of a well loved company and a positive sign for the industry, to insult or belittle the people in question. Just once, what's wrong with all of us--4E-players, Pathfinder-players, whoever--just saying "Way to go, guys"? You don't need the numbers. You don't have any right to the numbers. And frankly, the numbers don't matter. If it's sold well enough for Paizo to proclaim it a success, then for all it matters to any of us, it's a success. And even as a die-hard "4on," I couldn't be happier for them.
I really, really don't get it.
I agree that I don't need the numbers, and I certainly don't have a right to the numbers. They do matter, though. For all it matters to a company it's a success if a product sells out, but it means little to me without a good gauge of what it means in an objective sense.
So I suppose the reason I made the first post was to say that by touting a sold-out run, a company makes a claim to success, and what is implied is that the success is worth noting; lots of people bought this, and because they did, so should you!
On its face, this is a bad argument for a company to make, but it is worse when there are no numbers to back it up. Not only am I supposed to get on the bandwagon of game X, I'm supposed to do so based on someone's vague claim that there will be lots of people there with me.
Think about this in the context of the recording industry. Imagine if instead of "Band X sold Y copies of their new album this week," we got "Band X sold out of their initial run of their new album in the first week." Does this mean that lots of people like the band and/or the album? Will I be a social pariah if I say I like it? Who knows? And you might say "Who cares?", and you would be right; but that is really outside what the marketing strategy is intended to accomplish.
That's why I think the "25 000 unique downloads" claim for the Pathfinder beta was interesting in a way that this current news or similar news from any company isn't. That doesn't really make it much better, but at least I know the size of the bandwagon. In the beta's case, the download numbers did, as Mona claimed, somewhat justify pursuit of the Pathfinder game; there was indeed a good amount of interest, enough to indicate some good sales figures.
It's the marketing I'm interested in, and I thought it was on topic. The intent is not to insult or belittle people for using this kind of marketing strategy; if I am, I suppose I'm slagging on every company that has ever used it. "Success" can be subjective, I just hate it when it's used to promote something that should require more objectivity.
I guess I disagreed about what the thread should be, that's all. This is too much of a digression, though, and I'll start a new thread if I want to discuss this with other interested people. My cynicism in this thread stops here.
Wow. I'm reminded once again why so many people outside our hobby have such a poor opinion of gamers.
I truly don't understand the need for people, in what should be a thread celebrating the success of a well loved company and a positive sign for the industry, to insult or belittle the people in question. Just once, what's wrong with all of us--4E-players, Pathfinder-players, whoever--just saying "Way to go, guys"? You don't need the numbers. You don't have any right to the numbers. And frankly, the numbers don't matter. If it's sold well enough for Paizo to proclaim it a success, then for all it matters to any of us, it's a success. And even as a die-hard "4on," I couldn't be happier for them.
I really, really don't get it.
I think this lends more credit to my less favorite thesis formed on edition wars:
There are likers and there are haters.
Likers talk about what they like. Sometimes annoyingly much, but they really like that stuff, so it's hard to get angry for that.
Haters talk about that they hate. Often annoyingly much, because they really hate that stuffand derile anyone that doesn't, finding fault in the smallest things and distracting from the good stuff about it or helping to make it better.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
I agree that I don't need the numbers, and I certainly don't have a right to the numbers. They do matter, though. For all it matters to a company it's a success if a product sells out, but it means little to me without a good gauge of what it means in an objective sense.
That's just it, though. The numbers don't matter to you.
They matter to Paizo. They matter to retailers and distributors. They matter not one whit to you, or to me, or to anyone else in this thread.
What matters to us is whether the game is selling well enough for Paizo to continue the line. Obviously, it is. But beyond that simple binary equation--yes it is/no it isn't--the specific numbers don't change anything for the consumer.
Everything else from us--everything else--is idle curiosity at best, or unjustified entitlement at worst. And while there's nothing wrong with being curious, that curiosity is our issue, not Paizo's.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
Paizo, I also congratulate you to get all the criticism for marketing and information policy as other big companies! That really speaks to your success.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
It was just dry humour. I know that kind can be terribly hard to get, and I must admit it translate poorly at times to written form. But maybe for a second, if you stop being so god damn sensitive and expect the worst from anyone who plays D&D instead of Pathfinder, maybe you will be better off.
I'm a fan of 4e and of Pathfinder as well. Jack99, I got your humor, but still thought it was unnecessary baiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firos
Perhaps because it would make your report of a sold-out preorder seem like something more than a manufactured piece of marketing? It is hard to avoid this conclusion of course:
But then again . . . .
__________________ Brian Zuber
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