I'm bored with it all.

[Sanzuo]

I'm bored with it all.

Go here. Fetch this thing. Kill this guy. It's all the same thing over and over.

Whenever I watch a film or read a book it's always a lot more interesting. There are characters with personalities and character flaws. There is intrigue and betrayal. There is evolution and dynamic. Not in terms of leveling up. I'm talking about characters that evolve and change and learn life lessons.

I almost never get that out of a game I'm running. I try to entice the players with political intrigue and they just charge in swords and spells swinging. I try to play horror-suspense and they respond with assault rifles.

I've grown complacent, so I just give them what they want. Stuff to pwn and phats to loot.

But I'm getting tired of it. I want to run a game just once where the players aren't thinking about their attack bonuses. Where the idea of stepping into combat is a dangerous and foolhardy endeavor. Where they are willing to stop for a moment and think, "What is my character's motivation?"

Maybe it's me. I think a lot of the time that I'm not clever or original enough to motivate the players with things other than carnage and gold. Maybe I'm being unrealistic and there really isn't anything besides these things.

What do you think?

[weem]

I get where you are coming from.

While I am very happy to be playing/DM-ing again (last did so when 3e was new), my new (current) players (I have moved since back then) really aren't into the RP aspect. I am in the same boat as far as pretty much giving them what they want, but I still try as best I can to get them involved from an RP aspect.

So, a good question to ask yourself (I did the same) was... if I made a game that gave no XP for combat, but rather for good RP-ing, skill challenges, etc - would they be interested in playing it? If so, you can probably make some changes to your current game. Maybe start lowering the combat XP a bit (secretively maybe?) and tell them you will be implementing an XP "bonus" for RP-ing. You could tell them that you aren't looking for LARP-ing, but just more involvement in who their characters are etc.

Maybe tell them to no longer tell you what ability they are using, but instead describe what they do followed by the appropriate rolls. You could even give bonus XP for very cinematic or awe inspiring descriptions that are followed by crits, etc. Kind of like Exalted.

It's a small thing, but it can start to steer them in that direction while at the same time rewarding them with the XP'z they want.


For me, I am considering starting a second campaign where RP-ing plays a much bigger role. If I do this I would make that known up front and anyone who didn't want to play, of course wouldn't have to. I know some who would - I do have a few good RP-ers - but some others I'm not so sure about. That way I have games I run that I really enjoy running for the RP aspect, and another that is fun for the sake of mowing things down and hangin out with friends at the same time.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts on my way through

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Honestly?

Be ruthless, and totally brutal in a staggered series of encounters...or even the segue into a whole new scenario, and just rip them down.

"TO THE GROUND, BABY!"

The thing is, *YOU* must put a lot of thought and effort--remember who you're dealing with here--into teaching them a very difficult and painful lesson.

The lesson is simply this:

You can't burn down, hack, *pwn* everything in your path, all the time.
Thinking that you can will just get you into an early grave after suffering a hugely embarassing death.

As the DM, you have to carefully and patiently train *hack & slashers* to learn to use other skills besides a battle-axe for every person or obstacle they encounter.

On one hand, you, as the DM, need to design scenarios where the party simply cannot accomplish the mission, gain the ally, rescue someone, gain influence with a noble, etc, etc, by swinging an axe at the problem. You have to design the scenario so that RP methods, drama, social manuevering, bribing, seduction, politics, negotiation, making friends, helping people or creatures with non-violent problems, whatever--is what wins. And make sure you reward them well for learning, and being smart enough to play their characters as something more than one-dimensional meat-cleavers. It's a process, though, so be patient...

But start being ruthless immediately!

Your patience is in designing scenarios, and letting them die over and over again. If necessary, have a friendly NPC sternly and patiently *tutor* them. Dropping hints and offering alternative suggestions for solving problems that don't involve them using the flamethrower.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[fba827]

sounds like you are quickly approaching dm burn out (if not already there).. any chance another person in the group will take over DMing for a while?

But on topic -- how much focus do your players put in to backgrounds? If none, give out a little xp for making a background. And then, take the backgrounds and find an adventure in them. it will make the characters more connected if it's their father they end up fighting, etc.

but if the underlieing cause is that your prefred style is not aligning with your players style then it will just lead to continued frustration until you find a happy-medium...

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Well, start with the game you're using. Do you want to stick with D&D or can you branch out into other games, like D20 Modern, Vampire and its assorted cohorts, Champions/Hero, etc?

If you want to stick with D&D, start a new campaign. Ignore the base assumptions of the D&D system. Go dark. They start in a war torn world where money, weapons, magic, are all tightly controlled. The "special" PC classes aren't available...bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, wizard (no one to teach!)Let the PCs be barbarians, clerics, fighters, rogues, sorcerers (inborn talent), they start with no more than 5 gp and a tattered set of clothes each. Magic items can't be bought and rarely found. Powerful wizards with armies of dread creatures rule the world.
Turn the PCs loose. They will have to survive...just survive....food, shelter..these will become treasure. There's no McGuffin to find, no princess to rescue, no evil necromancer to kill (well, that they have a prayer of taking on anyway). They will have to be smart and resourceful to survive, won't be able to take on any opponent because there aren't any magic swords, or fancy full plate for the likes of these PCs. Or and Mr Sorcerer? Better be careful will flashy magic.....if the Mages who rule everything find out about a rogue magic-user, it's sayonara.

This kind of game should make them appreciate their character's strengths as a whole, not just BAB. The PCs matter not the gear.
And give them lots of RP opportunities. With XP rewards.

[Holy Bovine]

Well I feel my group reach a moment of catharsis last session. They ran from a fight. They have never ran from a fight before. Ever. In 3 years of playing every week they have always stood toe to tow with everything I have put before them confident they will win. I finally, after dropping numerous hints and even having NPCs outright tell them the area they were in was really dangerous, out them up against a group of monsters they couldn't beat. And they ran. They ran as far and as long as they could. SO I let them go (after the Orc Wizard blasted them a couple of times with some long range magic). It felt great. They were a little disheartened but overall relieved and they still had fun. I think that was a shock for most of them. To flee and still find the session rewarding. Failure does not have to mean complete party death.

[kinem]

Sanzuo, you might have better luck with a non-d20 game, if your players are willing to try it. Seventh Sea might work, or Cthuhu, or even Shadowrun.

Not that you can't do all the RP in D&D, but it's harder to get started, because of the leveling-up system. And I don't just mean give rewards for RP - I mean that leveling up, in and of itself, is too good of a reward for anything else to matter in the PC's life.

edit: Heck, even slowing down the level progression won't help, because then if you miss out on some XP and everyone else levels up first you'd be behind for a long time.

[pawsplay]

First, you must devise a situation that cannot be resolved with mindless violence.

[Sanzuo]

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I think DM burnout might be the root of it all. Every week I find it harder and harder to come up with some new "adventure" that isn't a chain of combat encounters.

My problem is I can't think of playing D&D any other way. Also I think it's affected the way I run other systems as well.

Although one time I started an Exalted campaign where the players started the game as adolescent kids all living in a tiny village together. The first session began as the village was having it's spring festival and to keep the kids busy the adults sent them on a scavenger hunt. The players had to follow clues, go from one end to the village to the other and even do some in-game research and solve a language cipher. This culminated into a small brawl in the woods with a rival village bully over the prize and an encounter with a mad, mutated wyld barbarian. Imagine how frightening that would be for a 13-year-old.

I loved that session because of the amount of creativity I put into it. But then I remember the following session being more standard fare and not being as fun. Then we never played again.

[neuronphaser]

If you think there are issues with combats being too often and not being deadly enough, stop building "balanced" encounters. Give them some ridiculously easy stuff to trounce, and then put them up against the unstoppable.

Most of all, roll your dice out in the open. If they see that you're not cheating to kill them, then they know it's their fault...they should have run away from the Tarrasque.

But it sounds more and more like DM burnout.

One remedy that'll keep you playing: run some premade stuff.

I ran my own custom-built everything in every game all the time for damn near 20 years. It was growing stale near the end, even though I'd perfected my organization and my "play-style." Worse, it didn't matter what game we played, it was just as stale and hard for me to be excited about, even if the stories and setting and rules were excellent.

Anyway, I finally said "$#@@ this, I'm running Lost City of Barakus (levels 1-5) and Red Hand of Doom (5-12ish)." So far it's been the most consistently fun campaign I've ever run. By leaps and bounds, even. And I'd only half-heartedly tried premade stuff before.

It's nice having 90% of the work done for me. I just work the player's background into the story, restat a creature here or there if I feel like it, and I'm off. Way more time to think about NPC personalities and histories for the unique magic items, etc.

[kitsune9]

The tricks I use is not to develop the roleplaying aspect of the NPC's, but to develop a more historical approach to the setting and have players witness dialogue between the NPC's.

For example, I try to put a lot of thought as to why some dungeon/location would exist and what would be the legitimate purpose of it. By doing that, the PC's who take Knowledge ranks can make skill checks and learn things about the place as they explore it, killing monsters and taking their money, but later it will come into play for future sessions because they will encounter the various power groups or creatures responsible for making some of the history, rumors, etc. going on. Even encountering a book I will write up a short history and tie it to the campaign setting whether it's useful or not. My players get a lot of handouts as the result of their Knowledge checks so they can keep it all straight.

Another way of getting my players involved is a really long intro or mid-plot point or long conclusion that I read like a story. My example is that in the first adventure the PC's are falsely imprisoned and awaiting a trial by ordeal which is a guaranteed death sentence the next morning; however, the PC's are called to the duchess' court wherein they get to listen to a conversation between an envoy from another nation and the duchess discuss the local and dire problems facing the nation (the threat of civil war). While the PC's were waiting to be brought before the duchess and introduce the adventure, they were in the court allowed to listen in on the conversation. By doing these long intros, plot points, and conclusions, it sets the tone for the adventure and campaign, and I find my players talking about the local stuff going on more and more.

Ultimately, I could have written a short adventure which the premise was explore this place, get me some phat loot that I need to do something, and you'll have your pardon. I'm sure my players would have enjoyed it, but they wouldn't be engaged in it.

Did it change my players behaviors? Not really. They would still charge in with swords and spells blasting, kill people, take their stuff, and rack up the XP, but in between the sessions, they would pay attention to what's going around them, because now they are aware of the power groups in the area, their enemies, who not to cross, and it affects their decisions for future adventures.

Here's the trade off though, it takes a lot of time to prepare. Each module I wrote is about 20+ pages that will last for only two sessions unless I write up a dungeon crawl, but in the end, I think it's a more rewarding experience for me and my players.

[Dracorat]

Originally Posted by Sanzuo

I'm bored with it all.
[...] Kill this guy. [...]

But I'm getting tired of it. I want to run a game just once where the players aren't thinking about their attack bonuses. Where the idea of stepping into combat is a dangerous and foolhardy endeavor. Where they are willing to stop for a moment and think, "What is my character's motivation?"

[...]

What do you think?

I think you're crazy.



But I guess I do understand the situation. I've tried to encourage my players to be more in character, but I've come to realize over the years that D&D for me and my players is about coming out on top - finding the treasure, saving the girl, trouncing the baddies - and less about lore.

For my lore and immersion fix, I play video games. Some people read books.

But you need to ask yourself - what kinds of players are you attracting? What do they want? If the answers to those will not bring you enjoyment, then you need a new hobby, or new players, or new way of doing the hobby.

It's not insurmountable, but before you change tracks, be sure that the passenger cars are compatible with the new tracks...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Another vote for DM burnout. I was there a few years ago. It was so bad, I ran the entire opening story arc of a campaign without realizing I had designed the villains with a horrible and easily exploited flaw that turned them into paper tigers.

You need a break.

HOWEVER...

There is also much to be said for your players knowing that there are some foes they simply can't beat...at that moment in time. The term "tactical retreat" needs to be part of their lexicon.

Once the PCs are making more rational choices, the game will have a better feel to it.

As pointed out above, one way is to give them opponents who can't be overpowered by the party.

Another is to give them a foe who is easily overpowered, but if that happens, there will be repercussions. An "eggshell" opponent has charisma and attitude, and will try to provoke the PCs into a fight. When the party uses their usual amount of force, the eggshell opponent falls quickly and falls hard- perhaps fatally. In the aftermath of the fight, as it turns out he had connections. MAJOR connections. Connections that will make life in the region a living hell for the party.

[Prisoner6]

Yeah, sounds like you need to take a break from the game.

A few folks up there are advising changing up your games, but I would be cautious about that. If the players <i>want</i> a combat heavy, light on role-play game, then they won't appreciate trying to force something else down their throat.

I think a lot of DMs go wrong that way. They think their way of playing is best and try to "correct" the players... That usually leads to people trying to cram dice down each other's throats after 3 or 4 sessions.

Just take a break. First from DMing, and then maybe switch to another game system. Try asking your players "hey, how about some Sci-Fi RPG?" or something like that. A change might help shake things up.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by Prisoner6

Yeah, sounds like you need to take a break from the game.

A few folks up there are advising changing up your games, but I would be cautious about that. If the players <i>want</i> a combat heavy, light on role-play game, then they won't appreciate trying to force something else down their throat.

I think a lot of DMs go wrong that way. They think their way of playing is best and try to "correct" the players... That usually leads to people trying to cram dice down each other's throats after 3 or 4 sessions.

Just take a break. First from DMing, and then maybe switch to another game system. Try asking your players "hey, how about some Sci-Fi RPG?" or something like that. A change might help shake things up.

I think this is really good advice, but I'm also for shaking things up a bit at the same time. Maybe you need a little carrot and stick. The Carrot: Try talking to your players. It doesn't have to be just "their way" or just "your way" either. Discuss together, as a group, about what everyone (players and DM alike) prefer in a game and want out of a game. The Stick: start introducing some consequences for ignoring some very real and practical things they should be considering (intrigue, espionage, etc.). Explain to them that not everything can be dealt with a sword.

Let them know you want them to put some effort into roleplaying a bit more, and then throw them a few purely combat encounters for their enjoyment. Everyone should be enjoying the game, including you.

[Sanzuo]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

I think this is really good advice, but I'm also for shaking things up a bit at the same time. Maybe you need a little carrot and stick. The Carrot: Try talking to your players. It doesn't have to be just "their way" or just "your way" either. Discuss together, as a group, about what everyone (players and DM alike) prefer in a game and want out of a game. The Stick: start introducing some consequences for ignoring some very real and practical things they should be considering (intrigue, espionage, etc.). Explain to them that not everything can be dealt with a sword.

Let them know you want them to put some effort into roleplaying a bit more, and then throw them a few purely combat encounters for their enjoyment. Everyone should be enjoying the game, including you.

I really didn't want to make it sound like I was putting it on my players for things being the way they were. My complaining was just sort of a general sort of cry out against the established "method" we seem to have built. It's not like I blame my players for our combat-heavy games, it's what we've been doing forever. It's what's expected of our games at that point. My complaints were about that, our groups expectations. And I'm afraid I don't have the capacity to come up with an adventure, encounter, whatever you want to call it, that isn't simply a combat session with plot sprinkled in. I think combat has it's place, sure, I just don't want it to be at the forefront of everyone's minds.

[FormerlyDickensC]

I not only see where you're coming from, I've been there, got the T-shirt, and wore it out already.

Well, there is a lot of good advice here. But I think the bottom line is that you need a new group of players if current ones really don't want to do the RP thing. A hack and slash group will never enjoy good RP and vice versa.

If you can't find a group local to get a good RP campaign going, try starting a PbP game for a little while. I was initially turned off by how long it would take to resolve a scene. But once you're into the first scene, you can easily spend an hour or two each and every day writing posts in response to your players. I actually learned a lot about DMing by DMing a PbP game. It was quite rewarding, but also a lot of work as always.

If you're looking for a thrilling, political intrigue, heavy role play setting for D&D, I definitely recommend Ptolus by monte cook. Google it. Otherwise, just try a new game outside of D&D or D20.

But here is the KEY ---> When the group starts (whether in person or PbP) make sure you explain fully 1) what you're goals are and 2) what you're expectations are. As long as you do these two things, and people seem excited by what you have to say, then the game should go well. Of course, it also means you have to know what you want and expect.....

But, I really just think you're going to have to find another group somehow some where.

[Reveille]

Two Words: Grim Tales.

[neuronphaser]

Originally Posted by Prisoner6

Yeah, sounds like you need to take a break from the game.

A few folks up there are advising changing up your games, but I would be cautious about that. If the players <i>want</i> a combat heavy, light on role-play game, then they won't appreciate trying to force something else down their throat.

I think a lot of DMs go wrong that way. They think their way of playing is best and try to "correct" the players... That usually leads to people trying to cram dice down each other's throats after 3 or 4 sessions.

Just take a break. First from DMing, and then maybe switch to another game system. Try asking your players "hey, how about some Sci-Fi RPG?" or something like that. A change might help shake things up.

A very good point. Players will be players, and you have to cater to them much more than they have to cater to you (usually, anyway).

My group's are usually about half people really into gaming in general and ready to put their all into it, and half people who just want to sit around and shoot the ****. It's tough to balance, but be open and honest with all of the players, and you'll find that the kids just their to chat and hang out won't hold it against you if you start doing a lot of roleplaying with the other players.

As long as everyone knows why they're there and no one is offended by anyone else's motives, it usually works out.

[jasin]

I play in two groups that overlap only slightly.

One group just finished Age of Worms. The game started with a TPK on the second encounter (acid beetle swarm... no alchemist's fire? foolish fools!). One of the highlights (for me, at least) was when my wizard subdued an undamaged pit fiend in a single round of melee combat.

The other group finished an Eberron game relatively recently. We raced Nazi elves to a forgotten temple, stole their airship, escaped notice by refitting it in Zilargo, discovered the largest cache of dragonshards in history, struck a deal with a Sharn crime lord, battled quori invading our dreams, and finally used the dragonshards to turn our airship into a time machine to travel back and scatter the dragonshards over the area (and in the time!) where they have been/will be found, forever putting them outside the villains' reach.

With the right crowd, anything will work. You most definitely can have intrigue in D&D, and you can probably have fight-loot-repeat in Call of Cthulhu.

It sounds like you're just burnt out. Take a break. Have someone else run for a while, try a different game, read some books, watch some movies. You should get your groove back sooner rather than later.