Archdevils/demon princes vs. deities

[Information]

Anyone test the Creature Catalog archdevil/demon lord stats against any of the deities?

I wonder how Monte's versions of the archfiends will compare against deities...

I really hope that "somewhere between the greatest of mortals and the least of the gods" doesn't mean that Kurtulmak, the deity of kobolds, could b**** slap Asmodeus, the King of the Nine Hells, with impunity.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I hope so!

I mean, let's face is, the Big A is potent, but he's no Kobold-God!

I dunno. That's probably not an unbaiased opinion...I have this reactionary tendancy when anybody talks about how demons and devils should be extremely powerful. IMHO, that just makes 'em "cooler." I prefer my demons and devils easily trumpable by a mortal, so that they have to resort to more scheming and underhandedness to win.

The power in demons and devils, IMC, is not that they could destroy creatures with a glance or teleport wherever they wish. They can't whip your butt in a straight-up fight. Their power is making you not want to fight them in the first place...to actually want to be working for them...to lure you into their service, so that they achieve power without having to result to physical threats.

Of course, anything in the Abyss should be more powerful than a similar Devil, but that's just my view that Demon life is nasty and violent and such, and the only way to rise above that is to become physically powerful.

Of course, Devil should be brighter and more conniving than Demons. They may not have to be physically powerful, but they DO have to outwit any potential sabateurs. That's a mental challenge.

Sorry for the rant. Basically, Demons and Devils, even the powerful ones, don't have to rival the gods in power. They're crafty (even the chaotic ones), not nessecarily mighty.

 

[Crothian]

I imagine the most powerful Demon or Devil would have Divine Rank 0.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The Creature Catalog stats are "official" in my game until I get a chance to check out BOVD. But if the BOVD required Dieties & Demigods to use the stats I'll just keep on using the CC.

 

[reiella]

Well, my belief is simply that they need to be a comparable force, or else why are the autonomous entities in their respective planes. Why isn't Asmodeus under the thumb of some evil deity in the Nine Hells?

Less so the why don't the 'good' three-feet just go and kill the nasty do nasty evil, and more so why aren't they subjugated or just flat-out killed by the evil gods sharing the same 'home' space.

At least Demogorgon has something of an excuse of being in the Abyss and it's kinda big. Asmodeus at least though, it doesn't really make sense to me at least. If he wasn't able to stand up against the gods in terms of power, then why hasn't he either been removed from power by the evil gods or subjugated by one of them.

An epic level type personification could work quite well, as long as his level of power is such to make sense as to why the putzy LE gods aren't making Asmodeus serve them tea and crumpets.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, there are a few easy explanations for this one:

First, Asmodeus rules the Hells, meaning that he commands the absolute obedience of literal armies of devils and powerful servitor archdukes, as well as the allegiance of his fellow archdevils. That's a great deal of power. Even a greater deity with all its assembled resources would have an awfully hard time attempting to overthrow Asmodeus, even were he a 1st-level commoner!

Second, devils are cunning and crafty, good at making deals. Asmodeus no doubt has created "arrangements" with various evil deities ensuring that they will pursue a policy of mutual non-aggression, or even that such deities will protect the Hells against outside interference.

Finally, the Hells are the primary breeding ground of Lawful Evil outsiders; it therefore seems that all the LE deities have an interest in ensuring that this breeding ground remains undisturbed and exempt from interference by anyone in their ranks. Better to leave it to the management of the archdevils.

Just some food for thought. Also, as you suggested, reiella, it's not like the archfiends can't be powerful just because they're not deities. A 60th-level epic character might not have the salient divine abilities of a true deity, but it'll have pretty much every other feature (skills, feats, BAB, etc.).

 

[Tonguez]

In the Incantations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony it is explained (by Asmodeus to the new 'Personification of Evil) that the Balance of Hell is NOT kept because the Ruler of Hell has any power to control it but becuase the various minions of the hells beleive that the Ruler has that power and ALL the various devil lords don't want the minions to know...

In other words The Devil Lords are scheming B#stard-swords who have maintained power by cunning and guile...

 

[Mordax]

Since we're repeating our positions about this stuff, here's mine again:

Archfiends are the "divine" version of devils and demons. Like gods, they can draw on the power of the souls they rule to fuel big, nasty powers. (This is why fiends are never gods - they "evolve" in a different direction.)

Asmodeus is more than capable of defending his office by force, even changing the landscape of Hell. In Nessus, he qualifies as an Overpower, in terms of raw personal might.

But they're not *real* gods.

A true deity carries their power anywhere they go: Zeus is still Zeus, whether he's on Olympus, or chowing down at a Prime Inn. He can always level mountains, or raise the dead.

Archfiends can't take their power with them. Their version of divine ranks only work on their home turf. Asmodeus can only manifest as an epic mortal, on the Prime - easily fended off by a god, or a party of high level adventurers.

To me, this is the best of both worlds. IMO, the notion that Asmodeus can keep his office because he's got armies or is cunning is pretty weak - any evil god on the block could assassinate and replace him, probably without anybody even noticing.

However, I agree with the idea that devils shouldn't be able to conquer all of creation with divine powers. If they could, they wouldn't need those big armies.

 

[Information]

I am mainly interested in how the deities in D&Dg compare to the CC versions of the archfiends (which I haven't downloaded or used).

Any take on this, Upper_Krust?

Nonetheless, I feel that archdevils and demon princes should be comparable to deities in power, although in different ways. I don't think Set should be able to enter Nessus and bully Asmodeus into submission.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Information mate!

Any take on this, Upper_Krust?

I feel that archdevils and demon princes should be comparable to deities in power, although in different ways. I don't think Set should be able to enter Nessus and bully Asmodeus into submission.

I have run a few fights - I still say my method for modifying Challenge Ratings sorts this out.

Add +8 ECL for Divine Rank 0; then +4 per additional Divine Rank.

eg.
Hercules 40 HD/Levels + 28 (Divine Rank 5) = ECL 68.
ECL 68 = CR 37

Demogorgon 66HD + 8 (Divine Rank 0) = ECL 74
ECL 74 = CR 38

Inhotep 20 HD/Levels + 12 (Divine Rank 1) = ECL 32
ECL 32 = CR 26

Azathoth 72 HD + 88 (Divine Rank 20) = ECL 160
ECL 160 = CR 50

To modify CR remember:
Between ECL 21-40 CR = +1/2
Between ECL 41-80 CR = +1/4
Between ECL 81-160 CR = +1/8
etc.