Can PC's calculate with AoO's?

[Omegium]

In a couple of WotC examples PC's are calculating with aoo's. In the delay action example, eg, lidda lays she is going to move through the treathened area of the monster, because it has already spent its aoo on tordek.
Is this metagaming? The combat is not done in turns, it is just easier to manage. AoO's where included to improve the fluency of combat, but IRL there is nothing like an aoo, you just attack because you had the change. Should a PC be allowed to calculate with this, and eg delay until the monster has spend its aoo on another pc?

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Oh boy you are opening up a can o'wiorms with this one.

I think that the can consider AoO when making decisions. The main reason is that if the creature just made an AoO, it isn't going to be able to attack again that quickly. At least that's how a character would look at it IMHO.

Plus the player will rarely know if the foe has combat reflexes, which will get the character smacked if it does provoke an AoO because they think the foe has used all it's AoO's for the round.

--Player-Freiendly Spikey

 

[Artoomis]

The bottom line is that these are tactical decisions made by the player with knowledge of the rules.

Nothing wrong with that, and numerous justifications can be found - "oh, I see he is curently overextended from taking his attack, so I'll just scoot past him before he can recover."

The main thing is to keep some aspect of role playing in there. If the character is a coward, then he STILL shouldn't run past - after all, there is alwys SOME risk (like he might have multiple AoO's from a feat, or something).

What I'm trying to say is that we have a game system with rules - you should not be penalized for following the rules and knowing how they work. Some justification can always be found, do just let it go and have fun!

 

[Galfridus]

IMO, these kinds of rules are simply the 3E analog to the kind of tactical knowledge that the characters would actually use if the world were "real" and not being simulated by a ruleset.

Penalizing a player for using this rule, IMO, would be like penalizing an archer for stepping forward 10 feet before firing because it puts him in a better range increment. In a "real" fantasy world it wouldn't work like that, but in 3E it does.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Is this metagaming? The combat is not done in turns, it is just easier to manage. AoO's where included to improve the fluency of combat, but IRL there is nothing like an aoo, you just attack because you had the change. Should a PC be allowed to calculate with this, and eg delay until the monster has spend its aoo on another pc?

In real life this happens all the time:
--Sending half a platoon to rush a machine gun nest while the rest lay down covering fire instead of just sending in one guy with a grenade at a time.
--Two defenders tackling the Heisman trophy winner at the same time instead each trying a solo open field tackle.
--Ditto soccer.

It is often true that one person may attempt something and fail, but provide a temporary distraction that allows someone else to succeed.

The only metagaming is if the player "knows" this Orc will not have Combat Reflexes. That is easy to solve as a DM.

 

[graydoom]

I don't see any problem with PCs using infomation like this... it is information that the characters would know. Remember, also, that all the action in a round is happening at once... so the character sees opponent A busy attacking PC B (who tried to run past opponent A) and the character thus thinks "Hmmm, opponent A is busy with PC B, time for me to run past."
Most stuff like this is simple tactics that any PC who has managed to survive would have picked up.
I think Galfridus and the rest have said this better than I did.

 

[Grendel]

Remember a round is 6 seconds. not 6 seconds per participant. So even though each player takes their turn they are actually moving simultaniously.

Therefore in the meta-game one person absorbs an attack of oppertunity, and the other gets through. The characters percption of events will be entirely differnt, one character rushes through drawing the opponents attention, the second character spots and opening and rushes through a split second later.

Bottom line, even meta-gaming is reasonable in certain situations. Even the archer example and range, how many of us can judge 100' and get into optimum range. probably none, however how many of us can gauge how accurate they will be attempting to hit a target at a given range, proably everyone.

I used to worry about meta-gaming all the time, however now, i look at it like game physics. it is nearly impossible to describe the physics of a combat or spell, but it isn't nessisary because there is a game mechanic that translates it.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, using the basic rules is not metagaming.

Using information the character would be unable to know, like using a lightning based attack on a fire resistant monster, altho he usually uses fire based attacks all the time, would be metagaming. Or calculating the optimum power attack against the AC of a creature with your palm pilot, altho the character has never seen a creature like this before and does only know about its AC, because of his monster manual database on said palm pilot, would be metagaming.

The combat rules are just a player's view of the character's perception to make decisions easier, like Grendel said.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cullain]

In a couple of WotC examples PC's are calculating with aoo's. In the delay action example, eg, lidda lays she is going to move through the treathened area of the monster, because it has already spent its aoo on tordek.
Is this metagaming? The combat is not done in turns, it is just easier to manage. AoO's where included to improve the fluency of combat, but IRL there is nothing like an aoo, you just attack because you had the change. Should a PC be allowed to calculate with this, and eg delay until the monster has spend its aoo on another pc?

As others have said, the characters would not know what an attack of opportunity was, but they'd recognize when an opponent has overextended, and it's okay to go.

It would be metagaming if the player said 'bob the dm never gives NPCs combat reflexes', so I'll charge through now with no fear.

Cullain

 

[med stud]

Does someone know if you can stop a AoO from taking place? IMC when a horde of weak creatures are to defeat the PCs, they let one walk in and out of a PCs threatened zone with full defense up (the +4 AC, no attack), making him/her attack.

When the PC has made his/her AoO, the other creatures tries to initiate a grapple.

Is this legal?