Anybody tired of god-o-centric d&d worlds

Sadrik · Jul 19, 2005

Anybody tired of god-o-centric d&d worlds. I got the idea for this from another post.

Does every fantasy world have to be run by dieties? Can they just be made up entities that people worship? Then a fighter or wizard could be a high priest etc.

Arguably, the cleric is the only class that you have to have in a group. How do you remove the cleric from the game and still make the game play viable?

The biggest problem is healing and more appropriately: free easily accessed healing.
Possabilities:
Make domains a feat for arcane casters?
Make healing spells arcane spells?
Change the healing rules around? (every hour you heal your con score, wp/vp system etc.)
Make effective healing potions super cheap? (like alchemist's fire or less)
Make a healing feat chain that adds to the heal skill?

Can't think of anymore. Any ideas welcome.

Remember this is fantasy lets keep real world opinions out of the discussion.

Cheiromancer · Jul 19, 2005

I'm not sure why you would have to make any mechanical changes to the standard DnD campaign world. Flavorwise you could make the gods seem more stand-offish, or have various cases of "divine intervention" actually be powerful celestials. These celestials might believe in gods, too, but with no real evidence to back up their beliefs. Communes and such could simply connect you to some kind of collective subconscious, but be interpreted by the cleric as contact with a god. And so on.

So.... is there anything in the rules that implies that gods have to be real?

Kanegrundar · Jul 19, 2005

IMC, it's unknown for certain that the gods exist. Clerics can cast spells, but there's a scholarly debate that rages if the gods are out there or if the ability to cast spells is no more than a person's own will exerting force over reality. Mechanically, they work the same, it's the philosophical difference that's the point. Beyond that, obviously, the gods do not actively participate in world events. There may be the occasional celestial or demon run amok, but nothing more beyond that. As for the number of religions, it's down to 3 major religions (Justice, Nature, and the Corruption) and a handful of minor gods among the "savage" species.

Kane

Sadrik · Jul 20, 2005

Ok,
I have heard two reasons to not change the game and keep the status quo. But that is not what this thread is for. What if somebody didn’t want to have divine spell casters in their game at all? What then? Having a neat reason to keep them in is not what I am asking.

What game mechanics do you need to add to get rid of the divine casters? They leave a pretty big hole and it has to be filled with something. What?

So what are some actual in game roleplaying shifts:
In a non-god-o-centric D&D world a local dragon could be powerful enough to garner worship from a local village or even a volcano. In this game world worshiping these things gives you no powers. In a deity based game they would be worshiping some dark god dragon or otherwise and the worshipers would have powers.

It is a fantasy game so you have magic. How do you explain it without gods creating it? I think the best way to express it is to have it simply like air. It is all around everywhere. Sort of like the force for Jedi, I suppose.

Anyway tangent aside, what are some ideas for making sure that the party still functions on a complete level with healing and such. Since divine casters would be gone. I listed a bunch of ideas above. What about those?

guyjin · Jul 20, 2005

Why not simply give arcane spellcasters access to divine spells? Since they no longer have to balance with clerics, there shouldn't be a problem, should there?

Anio · Jul 20, 2005

Make full and/or extended use of the Craft(alchemy) skill,
Use the Reserve Point rule provided in Unearthed Arcana and also freely available on the WotC site,
Create a Priest feat (in a similar vein to the feat included in Arcana Evolved from Malhavoc Press) that gives social bonuses and, if you're concerned, let it also give bonuses to the Heal skill,
Create a Healer feat that gives class-skill access and bonuses to the Heal and Craft(alchemy) skills,
Give healing spell access to sorcerors and wizards,
Give your players time to get used to the fact that clerics aren't around to insta-heal them,
Make sure that you provide healing potions and/or charged wands of healing in treasure chests more often,
Creatures that do lots of damage in a short space of time will be more dangerous, so be sure that you keep that in mind and adjust your DMing style,
Don't expect to go through four encounters per gaming day and ensure that the PCs have time to recover,
Give your players time to get used to the fact that clerics aren't around to insta-heal them (yes, I included this twice)

Something like that ?

.

RisnDevil · Jul 20, 2005

One thing I am not quite clear on....

Do you wish to just get rid of gods, or do you want to ALSO get rid of ALL divine casters?

If you don't want to get rid of ALL divine casters, then which do you wish to get rid of?

Cleric?
Paladin?
Druid?
(If you are using any other books.....Favored Soul? Shugenja? Healer?)

If you ONLY wish to get rid of the gods, then do you HAVE to get rid of divine magic? What about Druids whose divine magic comes from the land, NOT divine beings? Also, I think with some tweaking, the Healer would be a great class, as they don't need to worship a deity to REALLY do their stuff.

BUT, if you wish to get rid of ALL divine casters, then there are a couple of things you can do. First, if you want something that COULD one day be a plot element, you could make wands of "divine" healing magic that are semi-common, that no one knows how to create, yet somehow "mystically" recharge themselves, albeit it at a VERY slow rate.....

Also, I would make natural healing more effective. You could make it where each day they recover their CON modifier in hit points, and one half of the remaining damage is converted to subdual. Also increase the rate at which you recover subdual hit point damage (for this example, we will say it is the same as your CON modifier.)
MEANING: Eric is a 1st level fighter with an 18 CON. In a fight he takes 10 points of damage. When he rests that night, he recovers 4 hit points. Of the remaining 6, 3 is converted to subdual. Since he did not already have this damage, it stays for that night. The next day he takes 5 point of damage (for a total now of 8 points of damage). When he rests that night, he heals 4 points of regular damage and 4 points of subdual damage. Then, half of the remaining 4 points of damage become subdual. Lather, rinse, repeat. (Sorry the explanation was so long :heh:

)

I don't know if any of that helped, but that is all I have time to put out right now.

Li Shenron · Jul 20, 2005

I agree with the early posters.

You think you have to get rid of divine spellcasters because we are used to think that they are the proof that gods are real in D&D. But eventually everything is a matter of description. You could leave the cleric there and just say it learns spells by study like any wizard, change the name if "divine magic" bothers you ("white magic"?), and even divide clerics from church (making a difference between clerics as a class and priests as a job).

Quantumboost · Jul 20, 2005

That's not to mention the fact that rangers are divine casters too, and that niche may need filling afterwards.

Although, if you *do* decide to strictly eliminate all divine casters... that just means bards are going to be that much more popular.

Klaus · Jul 20, 2005

Welcome to Eberron.

No one (not even the outsiders) know if the gods are real or not. If they are, they don't dwell on any of the known planes.

Clerics are militant champions of their faith, they are special.

The vast majority of every religion's hierarchy is made up by commoners and experts. The rare priest that has actual spellcasting powers is more likely to be an adept.

Divine spellcasting power has no bearing on church status. Your 20th-level cleric PC could be taking orders from the 3rd-level expert who is the High Priest of the faith.