Silly economics of DnD

[bramadan]

I know that I am probably the ony person in the world who is bothered by the things like this but...

Have you noticed that, in DnD world, average labourer needs to work 20 days (and not eat) in order to buy the empty barrel or a crowbar. That the daily wage will buy you a poor meals for the day (for one person) but not lodgings of any sort.

Despite of that however, in a village *at any given time* amount of "ready cash" per capita exceedes what a trained craftsman earns in a month and in a large town excedes what a simmilar craftsman earns in a year. And that there is enough "ready cash" in an average small town at any given time to purchase a warship.

On a same count a city of 30000 (less then the size of medieval London and 1/3 of such places as Venice and Genua) has enough ready cash to hire mercenary army of 1.5 Milion men in the case of emergency, retain them for a year and still have enough left to finance the puchase of roughly 3000 warships.

On a more every day scale 1st level NPC's gear (200gp) is of enough value to hire 20men+leader mercenary company and retain them for about two months. Alternative is however to purchace 50' of chain.

On the topic of chain, a full suit of chain mail, (easily over 30.000 rings, work of over a month for master armourer with full shop of assistants) costs roughly as much as 50 feet of chain (250 rings, blacksmith's work of a couple of days).

And so on and so on.
This sort of stuff makes building anything resembling a believable setting neigh impossible...

 

[Trellian]

I've noticed.. a couple of the prices, and especially the wages for labourers and others are ridiculously low... adventurers must be some of the richest guys on the planet!

Adventurers could easily hire a mercenary group consisting of 200+ men to help them out for the cost of 5 or 6 healing potions... ridiculous...

 

[UnDfind]

Hmmm...

There's always going to be things that seem odd, but the reason for them may not be obvious. Also remember that peasents and other commoners of the day mostly live in what we would call poverty today. The available cash listed for places is cumulative, and would not be apparent unless every resident came together in one place and spilled all their cash and valuables into a pile. They probably wouldn't do that to hire mercenaries, as they would still have to eat.

There are no labor-relieving machines or mass-production factories in most fantasy settings, which makes certain products (like chain) to be a commodity, equalling the price of other products or services that are easier to come by (IE mercenaries). In truth, full suits of armor, chain mail, etc may very well be worth more than their entries, but characters require access to them.

There is also the fact that in a place filled with orcs, goblins, and all other sorts of crazy beasties ready to feast on the common folk, there is a higher demand for weapons and armor. There would be a higher percentage of blacksmiths ready to meet these demands, and unless they united in some form of guild, prices for these things would keep dropping as competition increased. Chain, however, is not one of these necessities in soopah-high demand, so it's price stays at what the dealer can hawk it for. Remember that the prices given in the PHB are simply a reference, and certain items may be an expensive rarity in some parts, but rather cheap in others.

Take wine for instance. Go to the place farthest from a nations' vinyards and you might find that decent wine is at least three times as expensive as the PHB listing (and good wine may be worth enough to purchase an army of mercs). But if you go to the place where the vinyards and aging cellars are, you'll find that the common folk can afford to drink pretty decent wine with every meal. It's supply and demand, and wise merchants play it as much as possible, always insuring that they make the most possible profit, but at a price reasonable enough to ensure you prefer them to the other dealers.

I added this aspect of the world to my games a long time ago, and was surprised at how many players loved it and tried their own hands at the market. It's kind of fun to have a bunch of heroes who also run the trade routes on the side. Makes for interesting adventures when their interests are threatened by events in another city.

 

[bramadan]

high demand != low prices

My intersat in economy is purely amateurish but even I know that the demand does *Not* generate downwards pressure on prices either in long or short term.
If a labour/skill intensive product is in high demand and there is no technology that can expedite its production pressure will be to increase prices not decrease them. Growth in supply will happend *only* when the prices are high enough that producing that product becomes more rational option for producer then other options. Under the curent pricing of chain and chainmail (just a conveniet example, PHB and DMG are full of simmilar nonsense) a smith has much greater motivation to forge chain then the mail. If the supply of chain thus outpaces the demand competition will drop the price untill labour investment is at least roughly equivalent to that of producing other products (in this case the mail). Prices in a handbook should be giving some sort of steady state equilibrium which they do not no matter what are the conditions on supply or demand.

Also against the theory of demand=low price goes the actual historcal example of nothing else but chainmail. Despite the fact that it was an item much coveted by all (despite absence of goblins real middle ages were very violent period) it steadily remained monetary equivalent of today's luxury family home, because supply in terms of many months work of skilled armourer was low.

Reason this bothers me is because as soon as PC's move a step beyond slaughtering monsters in dungeons and try to do something in the world arround them they are hit by economic nonsense that DM had to fix essentialy from the skratch.

 

[nameless]

It is really ridiculous how little labor is valued compared to its products. For an example that actually happened in a game I played, our party (with way too much deus ex machina help) beat a dragon in its lair and used the (lower than usual amount, for a dragon) treasure to buy an entire country. We then paid off that countries' debts, and lowered taxes enough that all the citizens able to move to our new country would do so. To top it all off, we threw a huge festival to let everyone know how great our new country was. And we still had enough in the bank to finance the country for years without charging any taxes.

After getting a giant population with a huge agricultural base, we raised an army and conquered all the countries where the commoners originally hailed from. All of this financial power was lying in a cave guarded by an overgrown lizard. It's just not right.

-nameless

 

[UnDfind]

Oi

Supply/Demand isn't quite as simple as that. If there was only one manufacturer of a particular product in an area, then yes, he could charge whatever he wanted for it (of course he has to keep it low enough that people can still buy it). But with multiple manufacturers/dealers, you've gotta realize that demand DOES result in a dropping of prices. One merchant will find a way to cut prices just enough to make it lower than the guy across the street, and the other guy has to find a way to beat the new price or lose business. This does result in a lower gain per product, but it is made up for in sheer volume sold. Prices tend to be lower when competition is real (thus the laws against monopolies).

As for the preference of a blacksmith forging a chain instead of chainmail, remember what was said about demand and availablility. What if a blacksmith creates 100 lengths of chain, and then opens his doors to the public? He'd set a lower price then competitors (but not by much) and would make a fortune, right? Not necessarily. The price for chain may be high because demand is actually low (strange concept, I know). But if chain isn't in as high a demand as chainmail, it would be a far more rare product to be found. That would mean that when you do find it, the one selling it can feel safe charging a higher price for it as you may not find it in too many other local shops (I'm not saying this is true for a chain, they tend to be common in cities and such).

Another factor of price is the economic position of the common customer. Let's say that the demand for chain comes mostly from nobility, masons/architects, and city officials (for things like prisons, buildings, etc). Those all have far more means to draw upon than a commoner, thus increasing the price to what the dealer can get the customers to pay. Remember that the price is a mixed (and usually convoluted) factor that includes cost, supply/demand, availability, general worth, target customer, and a whole lot more. Most merchants and folks know most of this, but a lot of it happens naturally within the economic system.

The game prices may very well be skewed (I haven't really compared them with prices common to medieval days, and I probably never will), but the truth is that prices would actually change for every town you come across. It says right in the PHB that the prices are only for reference and not set in stone. I never charge the PHB price for anything. I usually try to figure out how many fletchers would be in an area (things like nearby forests and the availability of good feathers could play a roll) before setting a price for arrows (usually made up on the fly, but it works), and then have the merchant ask a price well above what he's willing to settle on for them. The haggling is fun, and it's a good way to get some use out of Sense Motive, Bluff, and Diplomacy. Of course if I'm in a hurry to get to another scene, I'll be far more kind in my price setting.

 

[mmadsen]

It is really ridiculous how little labor is valued compared to its products.

Explain.

For an example that actually happened in a game I played, our party (with way too much deus ex machina help) beat a dragon in its lair and used the (lower than usual amount, for a dragon) treasure to buy an entire country.

From whom? And what on earth did they do with all that cash?

We then paid off that countries' debts, and lowered taxes enough that all the citizens able to move to our new country would do so. To top it all off, we threw a huge festival to let everyone know how great our new country was. And we still had enough in the bank to finance the country for years without charging any taxes.

Countries' debts? Was this a modern nation-state? And what kind of tax scheme was the old regime running that you so easily reduced taxes enough to get a flood of immigrants?

After getting a giant population with a huge agricultural base, we raised an army and conquered all the countries where the commoners originally hailed from. All of this financial power was lying in a cave guarded by an overgrown lizard. It's just not right.

If you didn't increase your land holdings, how did you increase your agricultural base?

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Oi

Supply/Demand isn't quite as simple as that. If there was only one manufacturer of a particular product in an area, then yes, he could charge whatever he wanted for it (of course he has to keep it low enough that people can still buy it). But with multiple manufacturers/dealers, you've gotta realize that demand DOES result in a dropping of prices. One merchant will find a way to cut prices just enough to make it lower than the guy across the street, and the other guy has to find a way to beat the new price or lose business. This does result in a lower gain per product, but it is made up for in sheer volume sold. Prices tend to be lower when competition is real (thus the laws against monopolies).

You seem to have confused supply and demand. More manufacturers would mean greater supply and an end to monopoly power.

More buyers would mean greater demand and an end to monopsony power.

 

[Imperialus]

straps on his abestos greathelm +5 and hunkers down with a bucket to fight the inevitable flames that will result as soon as Kerins Dad gets here.

*edit* Speaking of, what happened to him? Haven't seen him around much since the boards changed hands.

 

[fakename]

It is really ridiculous how little labor is valued compared to its products.

You say that coming from a first-world perspective, where most of the population isn't living in poverty.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for a while, where all the base labor is done by people from third world contries (esp. pakistan and indonesia) who get paid bugger all. A study was done into digging up roads, with an interesting result.

In most places, when the road is dug up for cables a piece of empty PVC pipe is placed in the ditch, so if more cables need to be added they don't need to dig up the road again. They weren't doing this.

It turns out getting a crew of half a dozen men to dig up the road, lay the cable and fill the gap back in is LESS than the cost of the PVC pipe.


The same rich/poor dichotomy is visible in the D&D economy. Remember that most of the people in the world are slowly starving to death because they are so poor, and it isn't as broken.