There are basically 3 systems to look at for air/space combat already published (that I have the ability to look at). Dragonstar (which I now own), StarWars (which I have in the #8 mag) and the DMG rules/maneuverability which we should all own at this point. I intend to list their system’s basics in a comparison, then give my opinion on each point.
OGC Note: Most of Dragonstar’s rules are OGC, but some terms and words are not. The ship/vehicle sections repeat this warning. I think we can take and use as much of that system as we like as long as we are careful not to take anything story related.
SCALE:
The DMG uses 5’ scale. Starwars uses a 500meter/square scale, but is designed for space. (that’s about 1500’ to a square... the largest ships in the game take up two squares!) DragonStar is preferred as a non-grid space, but has rules for such a system in the “few time it is needed.” Under these rules the scale change depending on the “level.” People use 5’. Ground vehicles use 50’, air uses 500’, and space uses 5000’. I will point out that a space craft under DragonStar rules, uses 1/10th its speed in atmosphere, and most speeds are listed in squares, not in feet.
We said on this board that a 30’ level would be best as it works well with current monsters and the like. I agree, but wonder about how that will work with space crafts. Some space ships (and air ships in a few cases) will be VERY big on that scale, and a realistic facsimile of space travel will give ships the ability to cover a lot of squares. We might want to consider 2 levels of grid size depending on the scale of crafts involved, or maybe an increased grid size to something a bit higher? 100’?)
Also to be considered in scale is the size of space crafts. Starwars uses a system of altered size descriptors. In starwars, a “tiny space ship” is the same size as a “Gargantuan creature” and the scale goes upwards through 5 levels ABOVE standard colossal (read as small space ship.) There is no term for a space craft of dimensions bellow that of a large creature. Dragonstar uses the standard size descriptors and then adds some to accommodate the larger ship sizes. These are listed as Colossal II, III, IV, and V. There doesn’t seem to be a direct description of these ship sizes, but I get the impression that these larger sizes simply cary the same scale of modifiers normally associated with size descriptors. Example: Colossal V (Dreadnought) size modifier to armor class is -128. The DMG simply has the standard sizes.
I recommend using the DragonStar system of object sizes. It doesn’t involve changing or altering the size system common to most DnD players, it simply extends it logically. I think we can even use the same terms of colossal IV/etc.
MOVEMENT (PART 1: Moving and Actions)
The DMG treats moving in the air like movement on the ground. You take a movement action to move, and either before or after it you take your Standard Action. Some Feats let you take your standard action during a movement. This can further be modified by using rules from mounted combat, where a mounted character doesn’t use HIS movement action to move, but instead his mount does and he still has more actions left. I won’t get into all that. Starwars does a similar system, only you move both during your movement action, and then again during your standard action. The difference is that during your standard action you fly in a strait line. Taking a double movement action lets you turn/etc during both parts. Durring a full attack action you move forward twice. Essential a ship’s listed movement is actually doubled during each round. In dragonstar you move your listed amount each round as a free action, but you need to use a movement action to perform a single maneuver… like a turn. A double move action lets you make two maneuvers, but no standard actions and you don’t travel any farther. In Dragon star you generally make your standard action either before or after you move, like a standard combat round from the DMG.
I don’t like the concept of moving when doing something else, and I don’t like the DMG system of moving twice as far on a double move action (this isn’t like ground combat where you can move a target and then stop and hit it) I recommend a system like Dragon star, where a vehicle has a top speed. It can not move more then that in a single round, even on a double move action. Taking a double move action lets you be more maneuverable but removes the pilot’s other actions (other people on the ship can still make attacks/etc before or after the movement).
MOVEMENT (PART 2: Speed)
In the DMG, a creature has a minimum movement speed unless it’s maneuverability ratting is really high. A unit with such a minimum must move ½ its speed each round to stay in the air. (IE no full attack actions) There is no declaring speeds at each round/etc, and no system for having to speed up or slow down from that speed, but some turns will remove distance from the creature’s movement for the round. There is also a number of systems for traveling a specific distance before making some turns/etc. In Starwars, there is a system of movement points. At the start of the round, the pilot declares his speed. Each speed rating has a set of movement points which are “spent” on things like turning, moving, slides, traveling in a strait line, etc. Speed also alters a pilot’s skill checks and the ships armor class. Faster ships are harder to hit, but harder to control. In dragonstar you also have a speed system. Once a round a pilot can change his speed as free action and speed affects your pilot checks. A skill check is required to change your speed. Keep in mind that speed in dragon star is a non-specific number (IE speed =1 corresponds to 1 square on the given grid, and ships that travel from space into atmosphere simply deal with 10th speed.)
I’m not a fan of movement points at all. It makes any movement in space number crunching. I also don’t like the concept of declaring a speed and having to use special actions or opportunities to change it. I do like the concept of a minium and maxium speed (min from DMG, and max from DragonStar) As I see it, each ship should have a min speed that it needs to stay aloft. Ships with hover abilities, or ships in a 0-gravity environments ignore the min speed. (not to be confused with space, as a fantasy space in with a flat world might still have gravity and a fantasy air environment might have none!) Max speed is the most a ship can normally move in a round even if it takes a double move. The concept of hitting a moving target is not included in standard Melee DnD rules and I guess we can just ignore it here too. Only starwars rules had the speed bonus to armor class, and that bonus was different depending on weather you were also moving/etc... it was just to complex. The speed affects you piloting checks can also probably be ignored as it would still require characters to make special declarations of speed, and then try to stick to them. Also if we then had Piloting skills affected by speed, and skill checks to change speed, then we get some nasty circular logic etc. Just ignore it I say.
MOVEMENT (PART 3: Turning)
In all three systems, ships have a definite “facing” rule, and an 8 point system (IE 45o angles). In the DMG, there is a surprising amount of exact codification of the standard maneuverability ratings into a system of distance traveled before turning, climbing, etc etc etc and it includes rules about losing speed for making hard turns etc. In Starwars, there is a complex movement point system where players spend points traveling distance, turning, sliding, traveling sideways, etc. Technically all ships can make one 45o turn after traveling at least 1 square (which still costs movement points). This can be done many times and combined with other things. There are also Stunts, which don’t use points but do use pilot checks. Stunts let you do things like make very hard turns etc. You can make one stunt per movement action. In Dragon Star, you travel in a strait line unless you use a movement action to do something else instead. Making a turn requires a pilot check and therefore a movement action, and the amount of the turn determines the DC of that check. A double movement action lets you make two such checks. Instead of those turns, there are a number of other possible actions instead, which all require Pilot checks.
I don’t like any of these systems as they are. The DMG one is too complex to use, and is based on a 5’ standard. Both starwars and dragonstar ignore the concepts of Maneuverability, which if adopted would provide no help for existing spells, monsters, and items. More then that, the Movement point system of Starwars is to much number crunching, and the single turn/etc capabilities of Dragonstar doesn’t allow enough leeway for tactical maneuvering. I recommend stealing bits from all the above instead... stay with me on this one: Each craft gets a maneuverability ratting just like creatures do, but we ignore nearly everything in the DMG about what that means. Instead we use this system:
Clumsy Flier: can make use of simple slides (starwars thing, diagonal movement with-out changing facing) but otherwise flies forward. During the one stunt per movement action the Hard Turn stunt can be used to change face (turn).
Poor Flier: can make use of simple slides, and one 45o turn per movement action. Other turns can be made using the single “Stunt” per movement action.)
Average Fliers: can slide, and make 45o turns. That’s one 45o turn per square.
Good fliers: can make 90o turns per square.
Perfect fliers: can make 180o turns per square. This is supposed to be UFO like flight after all.
ALSO, during a movement action you can make a single “Stunt” (or if we can’t use that term as it is part of Starwars, we can just call it a Pilot skill check) for things like hard turns, hard slides, loops, etc. such actions are defined in both Starwars and Dragonstar. To me, this is a simple system that is compatible with both the D&D standards and our concepts of how ship combat should work. Example: a blimp is a clumsy flier that requires a piloting check to turn at all. Most big dragons are poor fliers that can only make gradual turns under normal circumstances. A top of the line fighter jet or attack helicopter is a good flier that can make 90 degree turns. A UFO style space craft can move almost like normal humanoid on the ground, turning all the way around with no effort.
MOVEMENT (PART 4: 3d space)
The default rule in the DMG is that an opponent with a height advantage gets a +1 to attack. This is a rule used for goblins at the top of a tower, but the application is still valid. The DMG also has rules for how far a creature of X maneuverability has to travel before it can go up in altitude, and that it can move twice as far if it dives, and also rules for making diving like a charge attack. Both Starwars and Dragonstar ignore 3d space on a tactical level because in space, there is no true up or down (no gravity) so no advantages rules wise. Aside from ships being able to pass through each other’s spaces (with a collision hazard check) because there is extra dimensions at work, neither book mentions it.
I agree that in a 0-g environment 3d space has little purpose other then to make things overly complicated, but in a gravity environment like most people will be using for atmosphere, I think we needs some rules that are not as complex as the DMG. I’d say we imagine that the grid/map represents two levels of area. Low and high. This is easy enough to represent by placing miniatures on a little pedestal if they are in “high” altitudes. Making a genuine climb of altitude is a “Stunt” for ships of average maneuverability or less. Dropping in altitude increases your movement rate for that round by 50%. Any craft can make a dive attack as a stunt. Dive attack provide bonuses even to range attack within 3 squares distance. Making an attack from one altitude level to another means increasing the perceived range between the two by 50% (IE: if a ship at low altitude tries to attack a ship at high altitude, and they are 4 space apart, treat the distance as 6 spaces) This distance modification for ranges and use of stunts for changing altitudes works in 0-g environments also, but the dive, and double movement associated with it only takes place in gravity. Also, crafts at different altitudes do not present collision hazards to one another.
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RECAP on BlackJaw’s ideas:
For grid/board size issues I recommend two scales: one for atmosphere and another for space. Space is 10 times the size, IE: 30 and 300. Anything that can travel in both essentially travels at 10 times their standard speed in space. So a “Void Dragon” travels 150’ in atmosphere, but 1500’ in space... but both are basically 5 spaces on the grid.
I recommend taking the DragonStar extended Colossal Size scale, which is just an logical extension of object sizes by r places. In dragon star this colossal II, III, IV, V. This is probably OGC, but we could always call it Colossal B,C,D,E instead.
As for actions and movement: I recommend a hybrid system. Each ship has a Max speed, which is the most it can move in a turn, and a Min speed, which is the smallest amount it has to move to stay air born. Ships with a min speed above 0 must take at least one movement action each round. A movement action lets you move up to your Max speed, and move according to your Maneuverability ratting. In addition to all this, you get to make a single Pilot check to do something more interesting, which we can probably call a Stunt. If you take a Double Move Action, you get to make two stunts but don’t travel any farther/faster. For crafts/creatures with poor or clumsy movement ratings, this also allows for more turns, or opportunity to turn. Attack/actions are generally made before moving, just like normal combat. Crafts/creatures with hover abilities can actually make full attack actions and not move at all. Keep in mind that this is all in reference to the pilot making attacks/actions. If there is a gunner present, he can make a full attack using his full number of attacks with his weapon(s) while the pilot takes a double move action with the craft.
In respect to 3d space, just some simple rules on movement, and a simple system for 2 levels of play. Most miniatures for space crafts/etc come with a system for raising the model up as necessary, and it isn’t that hard to place a something small under the craft to raise it anyway. 3d space is less important to 0-gravity environments.
We may also want to think about some information on running a non-tactical grid space operation, for trips/races/chases to large to fit on a map, such as racing to the moon, that can be done through opposed skill checks and comparing the ship stats. It’s essentially a system like overland travel in normal D&D. You don’t have the players move on a grid as they travel through a large forests, even if they are tracking goblins or being chased by dark riders visible a half-mile back. You use the grid when combat breaks out, or they enter a confined dungeon. These rules can work the same way.
Next time: BlackJaw plays with combat mechanics... after he looks up the standard rules on attacking objects.
OGC Note: Most of Dragonstar’s rules are OGC, but some terms and words are not. The ship/vehicle sections repeat this warning. I think we can take and use as much of that system as we like as long as we are careful not to take anything story related.
SCALE:
The DMG uses 5’ scale. Starwars uses a 500meter/square scale, but is designed for space. (that’s about 1500’ to a square... the largest ships in the game take up two squares!) DragonStar is preferred as a non-grid space, but has rules for such a system in the “few time it is needed.” Under these rules the scale change depending on the “level.” People use 5’. Ground vehicles use 50’, air uses 500’, and space uses 5000’. I will point out that a space craft under DragonStar rules, uses 1/10th its speed in atmosphere, and most speeds are listed in squares, not in feet.
We said on this board that a 30’ level would be best as it works well with current monsters and the like. I agree, but wonder about how that will work with space crafts. Some space ships (and air ships in a few cases) will be VERY big on that scale, and a realistic facsimile of space travel will give ships the ability to cover a lot of squares. We might want to consider 2 levels of grid size depending on the scale of crafts involved, or maybe an increased grid size to something a bit higher? 100’?)
Also to be considered in scale is the size of space crafts. Starwars uses a system of altered size descriptors. In starwars, a “tiny space ship” is the same size as a “Gargantuan creature” and the scale goes upwards through 5 levels ABOVE standard colossal (read as small space ship.) There is no term for a space craft of dimensions bellow that of a large creature. Dragonstar uses the standard size descriptors and then adds some to accommodate the larger ship sizes. These are listed as Colossal II, III, IV, and V. There doesn’t seem to be a direct description of these ship sizes, but I get the impression that these larger sizes simply cary the same scale of modifiers normally associated with size descriptors. Example: Colossal V (Dreadnought) size modifier to armor class is -128. The DMG simply has the standard sizes.
I recommend using the DragonStar system of object sizes. It doesn’t involve changing or altering the size system common to most DnD players, it simply extends it logically. I think we can even use the same terms of colossal IV/etc.
MOVEMENT (PART 1: Moving and Actions)
The DMG treats moving in the air like movement on the ground. You take a movement action to move, and either before or after it you take your Standard Action. Some Feats let you take your standard action during a movement. This can further be modified by using rules from mounted combat, where a mounted character doesn’t use HIS movement action to move, but instead his mount does and he still has more actions left. I won’t get into all that. Starwars does a similar system, only you move both during your movement action, and then again during your standard action. The difference is that during your standard action you fly in a strait line. Taking a double movement action lets you turn/etc during both parts. Durring a full attack action you move forward twice. Essential a ship’s listed movement is actually doubled during each round. In dragonstar you move your listed amount each round as a free action, but you need to use a movement action to perform a single maneuver… like a turn. A double move action lets you make two maneuvers, but no standard actions and you don’t travel any farther. In Dragon star you generally make your standard action either before or after you move, like a standard combat round from the DMG.
I don’t like the concept of moving when doing something else, and I don’t like the DMG system of moving twice as far on a double move action (this isn’t like ground combat where you can move a target and then stop and hit it) I recommend a system like Dragon star, where a vehicle has a top speed. It can not move more then that in a single round, even on a double move action. Taking a double move action lets you be more maneuverable but removes the pilot’s other actions (other people on the ship can still make attacks/etc before or after the movement).
MOVEMENT (PART 2: Speed)
In the DMG, a creature has a minimum movement speed unless it’s maneuverability ratting is really high. A unit with such a minimum must move ½ its speed each round to stay in the air. (IE no full attack actions) There is no declaring speeds at each round/etc, and no system for having to speed up or slow down from that speed, but some turns will remove distance from the creature’s movement for the round. There is also a number of systems for traveling a specific distance before making some turns/etc. In Starwars, there is a system of movement points. At the start of the round, the pilot declares his speed. Each speed rating has a set of movement points which are “spent” on things like turning, moving, slides, traveling in a strait line, etc. Speed also alters a pilot’s skill checks and the ships armor class. Faster ships are harder to hit, but harder to control. In dragonstar you also have a speed system. Once a round a pilot can change his speed as free action and speed affects your pilot checks. A skill check is required to change your speed. Keep in mind that speed in dragon star is a non-specific number (IE speed =1 corresponds to 1 square on the given grid, and ships that travel from space into atmosphere simply deal with 10th speed.)
I’m not a fan of movement points at all. It makes any movement in space number crunching. I also don’t like the concept of declaring a speed and having to use special actions or opportunities to change it. I do like the concept of a minium and maxium speed (min from DMG, and max from DragonStar) As I see it, each ship should have a min speed that it needs to stay aloft. Ships with hover abilities, or ships in a 0-gravity environments ignore the min speed. (not to be confused with space, as a fantasy space in with a flat world might still have gravity and a fantasy air environment might have none!) Max speed is the most a ship can normally move in a round even if it takes a double move. The concept of hitting a moving target is not included in standard Melee DnD rules and I guess we can just ignore it here too. Only starwars rules had the speed bonus to armor class, and that bonus was different depending on weather you were also moving/etc... it was just to complex. The speed affects you piloting checks can also probably be ignored as it would still require characters to make special declarations of speed, and then try to stick to them. Also if we then had Piloting skills affected by speed, and skill checks to change speed, then we get some nasty circular logic etc. Just ignore it I say.
MOVEMENT (PART 3: Turning)
In all three systems, ships have a definite “facing” rule, and an 8 point system (IE 45o angles). In the DMG, there is a surprising amount of exact codification of the standard maneuverability ratings into a system of distance traveled before turning, climbing, etc etc etc and it includes rules about losing speed for making hard turns etc. In Starwars, there is a complex movement point system where players spend points traveling distance, turning, sliding, traveling sideways, etc. Technically all ships can make one 45o turn after traveling at least 1 square (which still costs movement points). This can be done many times and combined with other things. There are also Stunts, which don’t use points but do use pilot checks. Stunts let you do things like make very hard turns etc. You can make one stunt per movement action. In Dragon Star, you travel in a strait line unless you use a movement action to do something else instead. Making a turn requires a pilot check and therefore a movement action, and the amount of the turn determines the DC of that check. A double movement action lets you make two such checks. Instead of those turns, there are a number of other possible actions instead, which all require Pilot checks.
I don’t like any of these systems as they are. The DMG one is too complex to use, and is based on a 5’ standard. Both starwars and dragonstar ignore the concepts of Maneuverability, which if adopted would provide no help for existing spells, monsters, and items. More then that, the Movement point system of Starwars is to much number crunching, and the single turn/etc capabilities of Dragonstar doesn’t allow enough leeway for tactical maneuvering. I recommend stealing bits from all the above instead... stay with me on this one: Each craft gets a maneuverability ratting just like creatures do, but we ignore nearly everything in the DMG about what that means. Instead we use this system:
Clumsy Flier: can make use of simple slides (starwars thing, diagonal movement with-out changing facing) but otherwise flies forward. During the one stunt per movement action the Hard Turn stunt can be used to change face (turn).
Poor Flier: can make use of simple slides, and one 45o turn per movement action. Other turns can be made using the single “Stunt” per movement action.)
Average Fliers: can slide, and make 45o turns. That’s one 45o turn per square.
Good fliers: can make 90o turns per square.
Perfect fliers: can make 180o turns per square. This is supposed to be UFO like flight after all.
ALSO, during a movement action you can make a single “Stunt” (or if we can’t use that term as it is part of Starwars, we can just call it a Pilot skill check) for things like hard turns, hard slides, loops, etc. such actions are defined in both Starwars and Dragonstar. To me, this is a simple system that is compatible with both the D&D standards and our concepts of how ship combat should work. Example: a blimp is a clumsy flier that requires a piloting check to turn at all. Most big dragons are poor fliers that can only make gradual turns under normal circumstances. A top of the line fighter jet or attack helicopter is a good flier that can make 90 degree turns. A UFO style space craft can move almost like normal humanoid on the ground, turning all the way around with no effort.
MOVEMENT (PART 4: 3d space)
The default rule in the DMG is that an opponent with a height advantage gets a +1 to attack. This is a rule used for goblins at the top of a tower, but the application is still valid. The DMG also has rules for how far a creature of X maneuverability has to travel before it can go up in altitude, and that it can move twice as far if it dives, and also rules for making diving like a charge attack. Both Starwars and Dragonstar ignore 3d space on a tactical level because in space, there is no true up or down (no gravity) so no advantages rules wise. Aside from ships being able to pass through each other’s spaces (with a collision hazard check) because there is extra dimensions at work, neither book mentions it.
I agree that in a 0-g environment 3d space has little purpose other then to make things overly complicated, but in a gravity environment like most people will be using for atmosphere, I think we needs some rules that are not as complex as the DMG. I’d say we imagine that the grid/map represents two levels of area. Low and high. This is easy enough to represent by placing miniatures on a little pedestal if they are in “high” altitudes. Making a genuine climb of altitude is a “Stunt” for ships of average maneuverability or less. Dropping in altitude increases your movement rate for that round by 50%. Any craft can make a dive attack as a stunt. Dive attack provide bonuses even to range attack within 3 squares distance. Making an attack from one altitude level to another means increasing the perceived range between the two by 50% (IE: if a ship at low altitude tries to attack a ship at high altitude, and they are 4 space apart, treat the distance as 6 spaces) This distance modification for ranges and use of stunts for changing altitudes works in 0-g environments also, but the dive, and double movement associated with it only takes place in gravity. Also, crafts at different altitudes do not present collision hazards to one another.
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RECAP on BlackJaw’s ideas:
For grid/board size issues I recommend two scales: one for atmosphere and another for space. Space is 10 times the size, IE: 30 and 300. Anything that can travel in both essentially travels at 10 times their standard speed in space. So a “Void Dragon” travels 150’ in atmosphere, but 1500’ in space... but both are basically 5 spaces on the grid.
I recommend taking the DragonStar extended Colossal Size scale, which is just an logical extension of object sizes by r places. In dragon star this colossal II, III, IV, V. This is probably OGC, but we could always call it Colossal B,C,D,E instead.
As for actions and movement: I recommend a hybrid system. Each ship has a Max speed, which is the most it can move in a turn, and a Min speed, which is the smallest amount it has to move to stay air born. Ships with a min speed above 0 must take at least one movement action each round. A movement action lets you move up to your Max speed, and move according to your Maneuverability ratting. In addition to all this, you get to make a single Pilot check to do something more interesting, which we can probably call a Stunt. If you take a Double Move Action, you get to make two stunts but don’t travel any farther/faster. For crafts/creatures with poor or clumsy movement ratings, this also allows for more turns, or opportunity to turn. Attack/actions are generally made before moving, just like normal combat. Crafts/creatures with hover abilities can actually make full attack actions and not move at all. Keep in mind that this is all in reference to the pilot making attacks/actions. If there is a gunner present, he can make a full attack using his full number of attacks with his weapon(s) while the pilot takes a double move action with the craft.
In respect to 3d space, just some simple rules on movement, and a simple system for 2 levels of play. Most miniatures for space crafts/etc come with a system for raising the model up as necessary, and it isn’t that hard to place a something small under the craft to raise it anyway. 3d space is less important to 0-gravity environments.
We may also want to think about some information on running a non-tactical grid space operation, for trips/races/chases to large to fit on a map, such as racing to the moon, that can be done through opposed skill checks and comparing the ship stats. It’s essentially a system like overland travel in normal D&D. You don’t have the players move on a grid as they travel through a large forests, even if they are tracking goblins or being chased by dark riders visible a half-mile back. You use the grid when combat breaks out, or they enter a confined dungeon. These rules can work the same way.
Next time: BlackJaw plays with combat mechanics... after he looks up the standard rules on attacking objects.
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