MotW: Tempest question: 2H vs 2W, again!

[DrSpunj]

I am certainly not a math wizard, and have always taken other peoples' posts about 2-Handed fighting being better than 2-Weapon fighting as gospel when they've stated they "ran the numbers". I just recently downloaded Spikey's melee combat calculator and tinkered with it some (very nice, Spikey!) but I don't think I was using it correctly to try and simulate the following:

After reading the Tempest prestige class in MotW I again started thinking about a viable 2-Weapon fighter. It is my understanding that the extra off-hand attack (or attacks with Improved 2WF) do not make up for the damage loss compared to 2-Handed fighting because of the -2 penalty to all attacks.

If that is true then this prestige class has the answer: At 8th level the character gets "Absolute Ambidexterity" which causes

all attack penalties for fighting with 2 weapons [to] lessen by 2 when wearing light or no armor. Thus, if she fights with a light weapon in her off hand, she suffers penalties on her attack rolls for fighting with two weapons. (If the off-hand weapon is not light, she suffers a -2 penalty on attack rolls with both her primary hand and her off-hand.)

With a prerequisite BAB of +9, the earliest you can get Absolute Ambidexterity is character level 17.

My question is this: does this negation of the -2 to all attacks allow 2WF to equal or exceed the average damage of a 2HF of the same level and ability?

At 1st level this prestige class gives the character Improved 2WF, at 5th Greater 2WF and at 10th Supreme 2WF (for a fourth off-hand attack at -15 BAB). That means at 19th level a Fighter/Tempest will get 8 attacks at BABs of +19/+14/+9/+4 with the primary hand and an equal number at the same BAB for the off-hand.

My expectation is this would finally overtake a 2HF of equal level and ability, assuming the 2WF made it through the first 18 levels!

BTW, because of this long drag to 17th level I'm thinking of altering the prestige class slightly by giving them "Improved Ambidexterity" at the 3rd level of the prestige class that lessens the penalty by 1. This, of course, would be superseded by and not stack with Absolute Ambidexterity at prestige class level 8.

Anyway, any math heads want to confirm or deny this? And any chance you could update your melee calculator Spikey? Please?

Thanks.

 

[Crothian]

I don't know if one can truely say which is better. THe 2 weapon guy still has to hit twice, to be as effective as the 2 hander hitting once. With creatures with a high AC, that's less likely. However, a 2 hander can get 2 flaming weapons or high crit range weapons and have a much better chance to inflict extra damage. Expecially if he has access to a version of sneak attack.

 

[JLXC]

OK. Big weapon man has more single shot power... but woe be he who ignores the damn 2WF. Here's a Real example from my game.

Ranger/Fighter.

Improved Crit on Dagger and Scimitar, Weap. Spec. for Dagger and Scimitar, Quick Draw, Imp. TWF, more...

WHEN he rolls up on someone he can perform 3 attacks with the Scimitar and 2 with the Dagger. He crits on 12+ with the sword and 15+ with the Dagger. Maybe he's lucky but he does outfreakinrageous amounts of damage all the time. On a low AC opponent he can Power Attack for so much damage (and Crits become silly) that he does WAY more damage to those Low AC High HP things.

I think once again it's just about Even. Which is close enough for me.

 

[DrSpunj]

Yeah...

All those are excellent points, but I've seen people on these boards who have claimed to have taken many or most of them into account and still come down on the side of 2HF. I was hoping some of those same people could address things again in light of the Tempest prestige class. I don't think there's anyway I'd start a level 1 PC heading for it, but if I ever get a chance to start somewhere around 10th level or higher then I'd definitely do it unless the math still favors the 2HF.

 

[Crothian]

Well, to really compare a 2wf vers e a 2hf, we need a prestige class that maximizes the ability of the 2hf, like tempest does for the 2wf.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I think once again it's just about Even. Which is close enough for me.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be just about even. You have to spend 3 feats to fight efficiently with two weapons, 4 if you want a double weapon.

The guy with the 2-handed sword can spend these feats elsewhere.

For balance reasons, because of the cost of opportunity, fighting with 2 weapon should be a little better than fighting with a greatsword. Not 2nd edition better, just a little better. Enough to justify 3-4 feats.

(And Rangers shouldn't get it for free)

 

[Orco42]

Well, to really compare a 2wf vers e a 2hf, we need a prestige class that maximizes the ability of the 2hf, like tempest does for the 2wf.

That I would like to see. I have a big mean orc that thinks his 2d6+12 is too weak for a non magic greatsword.

 

[DrSpunj]

Another excellent point...

but it makes some sense to me that it takes a dedicated prestige class to finally bring the overall advantage to the 2WF. It's been said time and time again on these boards that 2WF spend multiple feats to get a "stylistically cool but mechanically poor" combat method. I just would like some mathematical backing to let me know with certainty that after spending 10 feats and 10 levels of the Tempest prestige class that I'm still not being overshadowed by anyone that can pick up and use a 2HW from day one.

 

[Crothian]

Maybe in pure damage, the 2hw guy wins, I don't know. But the 2w guy has versatility of attacking multiple weak people. Also, he can have two magic swords, both might be weaker then the one the 2h guy uses, but this also increases his versatility. Plus, the tempest can improve his AC by +6 by fighting with only one of his weapons. That's pretty darn good.

 

[reapersaurus]

Yeah, but it shouldn't be just about even. You have to spend 3 feats to fight efficiently with two weapons, 4 if you want a double weapon.

The guy with the 2-handed sword can spend these feats elsewhere.

Very good point to remember.

After seeing this thread, I'm revisiting the idea of playing a Large-sized PC (A Saurial or Ogre or something) and trying out TWF.

Wouldn't the Large-sized Saurial (Hornhead), for example, be able to use a Fullblade in the primary hand and a Longsword in the off-hand?

Then, when the Saurial Tempest has Righteous Might cast on him, his Fullblade damage goes up to 4d6 and the Longsword up to 2d6.

Would this approach start to grant benefits to the TWF style?