Dive and Flyby Attack

azxv · Jun 29, 2003

First, how far can a creature move when making a dive attack? Dive doesn't specifically say that the creature has to be above an opponent in order to execute a dive, if I recall. Assuming we house rule that it does, how does the downward movement increase (double) stack with the charge movement increase (double)? Seems that it would be triple base movement, according the rules for multipliers stacking.

Can a creature dive, make an attack, and then use the flyby attack feat to continue past an opponent, ala rideby attack? Doesn't make much sense for a flier to dive and then come to a dead stop, not to mention that it's not physically possible by the normal mechanics of flight in real life. (I'll take a pass on the "D&D is not real life" lecture, thanks. I want to be able to envision the attack happening, and stopping dead at the nadir of a dive isn't working for me.)

I'm thinking the best way to work it is to say that if a creature has flyby attack, it may dive at a downward angle other than stright down, make an attack (double damage with a natural weapon), and continue its movement past the opponent. Total movement may not exceed double (triple?) base movement, minus the penatly for "between up and down."

I'm at work and don't have my books with me, so some of these questions may be answered in the DMG/MM. Thanks for any help.

Destil · Jun 29, 2003

A) Charge is weird, it's a standard action that dosn't allow movement. You usualy can't combine it with any other movement in a round. Though I could see allowing a creature to dive and get the charge benifits (-2 AC +2 to hit).

B) I don't see why not. Note that comming to a full stop is also impossible for most manuaverability classes of flight in D&D without stalling out. When you think of a full stop you're seeing an artifact of the round system, baicly a flyer who does this is not comming to a stop, no more than someone who takes two concurrent double moves over two rounds. It's just game mechanichs and needing to break things down into turns.

azxv · Jun 29, 2003

Thanks for the input, Destil.

By way of clarification, dive is an action that flying creatures can take, detailed in the MM. It is essentially a charge action (with the +2 to hit and -2 AC) that inflicts double damage with a claw attack. Flyby attack is a feat that allows a flying creature to make a partial action at any time during its move (rather than only before or after moving). My question is: can the two be combined, and if so, how?

Regarding your contention that a full stop at the end of a dive is merely an artifact of the round system: this only works if you specify that the only action a creature can take immediately following a dive is a move action. If I recall the wording correctly (and it's entirely possible that I don't), there's nothing to that effect in the MM. So a gargoyle could dive in one round and execute a full attack against the same opponent the following round. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

Philip · Jun 29, 2003

azxv said:
TSo a gargoyle could dive in one round and execute a full attack against the same opponent the following round. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

Not if the gargoyle is flying. A gargoyle has average maneuverability. The DMG (page 69) says that creatures with average maneuverability have a minimum forward speed equal to half their movement. If the gargoyle elects to take a full attack while flying, it stalls and falls to the ground.

If the gargoyle landed at the end of his dive, he of course could make a full attack without stalling & falling.

azxv · Jun 29, 2003

Terrific, it was a poor example then. Let's assume the gargoyle has a few class levels and took the Improved Flight feat. In any case, it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.

azxv · Jun 29, 2003

Ok I'm at home now and found the answer to my main question; the text of Flyby Attack specifies that the move action may include a dive. Still not sure on the dive rate of speed though; double or triple? I'm inclined to think double.

Viper3220 · Nov 19, 2013

I can't find anywhere in the pathfinder books that lists dive as still being a special flying charge.

delericho · Nov 21, 2013

azxv said:
First, how far can a creature move when making a dive attack? Dive doesn't specifically say that the creature has to be above an opponent in order to execute a dive, if I recall.

A dive is a type of charge, and as such the creature performing the action must move in a straight line. Additionally, the creature must descend at least 10ft. as part of the dive. So, yeah, he needs to be above (though not necessarily directly above) an opponent to execute a dive.

Assuming we house rule that it does, how does the downward movement increase (double) stack with the charge movement increase (double)? Seems that it would be triple base movement, according the rules for multipliers stacking.

Yep. But, again, only if he dives straight down. If he dives down at an angle, the horizontal part of the motion doesn't benefit from the increase for moving down.

Can a creature dive, make an attack, and then use the flyby attack feat to continue past an opponent, ala rideby attack?

Yes. That's in the text of flyby attack.

Doesn't make much sense for a flier to dive and then come to a dead stop, not to mention that it's not physically possible by the normal mechanics of flight in real life.

That's just an artifact of the turn-based combat system. The same happens if the character jumps at the end of his movement, rolls a check high enough to clear whatever he's jumping, but doesn't have enough movement allowance left - he effectively 'hangs' in space while everyone else has their turn and then completes the jump next round. Basically, it's bullet time.

azxv said:
Regarding your contention that a full stop at the end of a dive is merely an artifact of the round system: this only works if you specify that the only action a creature can take immediately following a dive is a move action. If I recall the wording correctly (and it's entirely possible that I don't), there's nothing to that effect in the MM. So a gargoyle could dive in one round and execute a full attack against the same opponent the following round. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

Depending on the maneuverability class, the creature will have a minimum distance that it must move each round, or it stalls. So, actually, the rules already have that covered.

A creature with Perfect maneuverability could indeed stop immediately after a dive, but that's really no more absurd than a creature stopping immediately after a charge - you try running full speed for 60 feet and then stopping on a dime! (If you really want to fix it, all creatures and vehicles should have maximum acceleration/deceleration values to stick to. And you should either eliminate the round structure in favour of continuous movement, or at the very least switch to a much shorter round. Rightly or wrongly, the designers of 3e decided that that was just too much hassle to worry about!)