Reincarnation -- XP and ECLs

[TheBard]

From reincarnation in SRD:

...A character reincarnated recalls the majority of his former life and form. He retains his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as any class abilities or skills he formerly possessed. His class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on his new body. First eliminate the character’s racial adjustments (since he is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below. The character’s level is reduced by 1. (If the character was 1st level, his new Constitution score is reduced by 1.)

My questions are about XP and ECLs

I think that, like raise dead, the new XP total should be 1/2 way between the new and current level. What do you think?

Secondly, should the PC continue to use the normal XP chart or should a DM use the ECL for the new race? (The last issue of the Dragon printed all of these, BTW.) If, according to the description above, he is a member of that new race, that seems correct.

Comments?

 

[francom13]

Well the last issue of dragon that printed the ECLs also said these where just there iterpretations of what the ECLs should be and still need some tweeking.

As for level loss I think you should subtract the amount needed to reach the level you where from your xp.

eg. if you where 4th and are reduced to 3rd subtract 3,000 from your total xp and that value is what you now have.

As for ECLs being I assigned I think they should because of game balance reasons.

-Matt

 

[TheBard]

Well the last issue of dragon that printed the ECLs also said these where just there iterpretations of what the ECLs should be and still need some tweeking.

Yeah, that's for sure. The ECL for a Raven is listed at 2 and has a -8 STR mod. Flying is a fantasic ability, but I don't think it is worth _that_ much!

Anyway I think they erred on the side of higher ECLS than lower ones.

Has anyone seen the reincarnation "problem" addressed by WOTC? Seems like it's ripe for abuse -- esp. in some of the "Living" campaigns. I could see some munchkin hoping for that brown bear fighter -- esp if ecls were not used to assign new level thresholds.

I hate to argue both sides of the issue here, but I just thought of something.

I like the idea of ECLS, the big problem I see with using them is that the character is loosing out on HD, saves and skills that normally go along with using ECLs.

If my 7th level fighter comes back as a centaur he'd be 13 th level (6 th fighter + 7 ecl = 13) , but he would not have the HD, skills and Saves of both his class and race as a centaur that had taken 6th levels of fighter.

Perhaps a compromise?

 

[Tiberius]

I DM for a group of PCs who have a druid rather than a cleric, so Reincarnate sees a fair amount of use. I don't assign ECL penalites to the newly reincarnated, and have yet to see a problem. I handle Reincarnate as providing the form and powers of the new body, but not the added hit dice, skills, feats, etc.

-Tiberius

 

[twjensen]

Ravens and XP drain

If we assume the Raven is a sorcerer, then the +2 ECL might be right. Remember, ECLs are based on the most nasty class type that a character can pick. Since reincarnation is typically a case of being brought back as whatever is available, the DM can simply steer clear of obviously powerful combos and ignore ECL.

As for coming back 1 lv lower, the subtract method doesn't seem to work.

If I have 2,900 XP, I need 100 more to level to third. But I die. And when I am raised, if I subtract 1,000, I have not actually lost a level. So I subtract 2000.

Now my buddy, with 1,100 XP dies. Subtracting 2000 takes him to -900 XP!!

The simplest is to go to half-way between levels in the previous level, but isn't the fairest way to go.

The only fair way is a bit complicated, figure out what % of the way the character is to the next level, and go back to the same % in the previous level.

So in my examples, I come back 95% of the way to 2nd, at 950 XP and my buddy comes back at 50 XP, (5% of the way to 2nd).

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The ECLs published in Dragon assume that you selected a given race from the start, gaining extra HD, skills and feats as well as the special abilities and attribute modifier. If you reincarnate, you only gain the last two items on the list. The ECL also assumes that you will choose a class that plays to your race's strenght which is not always the case when you randomly reincarnate.

Should you assign ECL to a reincarnated PC? On case by case basis, yes. If a fighter reincarnates as a centaur, he's much more powerful than he used to be! But If a wizard reincarnates as a centaur, it's not quite the same thing. And if he reincarnates as an animal...

BTW, Raven ECL 2:

+4 dex and +4 wis and it flies. Surely you can come up with a class that benefit enough from these stats to justify losing two levels over normal race. A Psion, for example.

 

[EOL]

Another thing to consider on the Animal ECL's in the dragon is that they have all assumed to have been awakened which gives them 2 additional HD. Since that would not be the case for a reincarnated character I would figure even if you were using the ECL's dropping it by one would not be out of line.

 

[kreynolds]

Another thing to consider on the Animal ECL's in the dragon is that they have all assumed to have been awakened which gives them 2 additional HD. Since that would not be the case for a reincarnated character I would figure even if you were using the ECL's dropping it by one would not be out of line.

So, if you drop the characters new ECL by 1, the character is now a partialy awakened animal, and thus twice as dumb? +2 is +2. If you got the brains, it's part of the ECL. Makes sense to me anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The ECLs assume that the characters stats and class were chosen to take advantage of the 'racial' benefits. So it is not really appropriate to apply to PC who gets a random race.

If you allow the player to choose his new form, it would usually be fair, but might require adjustments even then.

 

[dvvega]

Reincarnate does not make an ECL adjustment.

This is from the mouth of WOTC.

The reasons cited are:

1) you do not get the hit dice/hit points of the new race
2) you do not get the BAB of the new race
3) you do not get the saving throws of the new race
4) you only get the physical things that a young adult member of the race would get.