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RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
Out of curiosity, since Ryan Dancey was key in establishing the OGL, and was part of the advocate for it's philosophy--I would assume we'd have heard from him by now, considering how important this announcement is.
I thought I saw a post from him saying he wasn't going to be publicly commenting on 4E. But maybe this is more his area of interest.
Yep. I asked him here on the boards a while back what he thought of the 4E marketing to date (October?) and his response was that he would not be commenting on 4E. (edit - link See last two posts)
Hopefully he'll say something publicly when he has enough information. Should be a good read.
__________________
We're gonna need a bigger boat...
Last edited by DaveMage; 10th January 2008 at 03:57 PM..
Yep. I asked him here on the boards a while back what he thought of the 4E marketing to date (October?) and his response was that he would not be commenting on 4E. (edit - link See last two posts)
Hopefully he'll say something publicly when he has enough information. Should be a good read.
Everyone knows when someone says "no comment," what "no comment" really means...
Everyone knows when someone says "no comment," what "no comment" really means...
Yeah, no comment. Let's not read to much into this, Ryan either doesn't have more information then we have, or he has and can't talk about it due to a NDA. All this discussion about the new 'OGL' is cute, but just not based on facts, even the folks providing the information from WotC's are using terms that are unclear at the least (contradictory at the worst). Ryan doesn't come across as the guy that spends a lot of time on useless discussion and ifs and maybes.
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
When I looked at Robin Laws post about the 4e OGL mentioned on this board, there was this comment from one rsdancey:
Quote:
Quote: "The RPG category is still struggling to right itself after the fallout from the 3E bubble."
First, I think it is impossible to determine what hurt the RPG category more, the immense success of World of Warcraft, a massive exodus of hard core RPG players deployed overseas in armed conflicts, the rise of widespread internet discounting for RPG products, the failure of the marketshare leader to implement a successful new player acquisition strategy, or a substantial erosion of the disposable income of the target demographic. All are factors in combination, creating a perfect storm, to be sure.
What I am virtually certain of is that no "bubble" effect in the TRPG category hurt stores or hurt the RPG category in stores. Lets remember that Y2K was The Year Of Pokemon, and stores were awash with cash as the first OGL/D20 products hit. Pokemon declined rapidly in 2001, but in 2002, Yu-Gi-Oh! exploded on the scene, generating 3+ years of steady profits that replaced most of the Pokemon revenue. The CCG component of a retailer's economic model dwarfs the RPG component.
When people say "look at all these crap products that flooded the market", I shake my head and wonder how many of them shop in bookstores or go to movies. Does the endless parade of crappy novels or flopped blockbusters create "bubbles" of economic disaster in those industries? How many really crummy comic books are released every year? How about Pop Music CDs?
Entertainment businesses ALWAYS follow Sturgeon's Law. They survive & thrive because the 5% that isn't crap sells really, really well. The fact that a whole lot of badly designed, poorly marketed, and barely supported RPG products were released using the OGL/D20 license likely had little or no impact on most retailers. Sure, for some of them who stupidly overbought thinking the licenses were guaranteed lotto tickets there may have been a steep price to pay when it became obvious that not everything D20 would sell. But on the whole, changes in the volume of Games Workshop, the struggles of WizKids, the cyclic decline in Magic sales, and a whole host of macroeconomic factors had much, much more to do with the problems of retailers than a couple of boxes of unsold D20 books.
Blaming D20 for the collapse in the TRPG market is just whistling into the wind, in my opinion. The problem is structural, not cyclic, and it is not going to get fixed by Wizards of the Coast, or any other publisher, with any licensing regime they implement.
RyanD
While he doesn't comment about the 4e OGL clearly he disagrees with Wizard's opinions of the 3e OGL.
Is he referring to major bookstore chain like Borders -- who I rarely see small print press game products on their shelves where I live -- or mom-&-pop FLGS who has those unsuccessful "badly designed, poorly marketed, and barely supported RPG products" still sitting on their shelves collecting 6 year's worth of dust? I have already seen one FLGS (the only one that is closest to me) shut down.
I respect Ryan Dancey, but in seeing the big picture, he overlooks the small portions.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
When I looked at Robin Laws post about the 4e OGL mentioned on this board, there was this comment from one rsdancey:
The factors he cites make more than a little sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger REG
Is he referring to major bookstore chain like Borders -- who I rarely see small print press game products on their shelves where I live -- or mom-&-pop FLGS who has those unsuccessful "badly designed, poorly marketed, and barely supported RPG products" still sitting on their shelves collecting 6 year's worth of dust?
Are they still marked at full price?
__________________ Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
In the book trade, most retailers have the right to return unsold copies to the publisher in exchange for a full refund. I've always assumed this was also true in the RPG publishing industry.
I think Dancey is also referring to FLGS. And his point is, that their profits depend on CCGs and other collectible games, and that RPG products are only a small portion of most game stores' sales. So, the d20 boom was therefore not that bad for retailers.
__________________ Tired of sloppy RPG supplements that take chances with breaking rules but don't take chances with breaking new ground?
Try these lines of bold, original products, available from Big Finger Games:
POSTMODERN: New, well-balanced, cinematic rules for d20 Modern games! FANTASY FOLIO: Inventive, easy-to-use options for your d20 Fantasy campaign! M&M SUPERLINK: The best and most useful supervillain books on the d20 market. Period.
So, the d20 boom was therefore not that bad for retailers.
Except the companies that bought tons of d20 products because of the "d20 RPG renaissance" and are now eating the cost of those impossible-to-sell supplements. While it's true that they make a lot of money off collectible games, RPGs cost them more to stock, especially when they're harder to sell. Saying that the flood of shelf-occupying d20 products (and the multitude of companies that went under, making it impossible to get your money back) didn't harm the RPG industry and it's retail store sounds like people aren't looking at the entire picture. My FLGS seriously considered not stocking anymore RPGs that weren't made by White Wolf or Wizards because of it, and ended up having to give away tons of d20 products as "freebies" with other products.
__________________ Formerly known as Mourn...
Spoiler:
This sounds like a Fantasy Heartbreaker, slouching towards Bethlehem, waiting to be still-born. - Particle Man
Spoiler:
Every edition moves us closer to a better game, in my view. And guess what, 4E will screw some stuff up, just like 3E made monster design a horrific, creativity squashing nightmare (ok, I'm overstating it, yes, you could still make real cool monsters, but it became more of a rules lawyer-y cookie cutter solution which I don't favor). 4E will do things wrong. Maybe it will be that 1st level characters will be too powerful. I don't know. But experimenting is the way to do it--and, as it so happens, it is the TRADITION of D&D. Gary, god rest his soul, didn't stop with the white box. He did Greyhawk. Blackmoor. He added new classes. Psionics. New monsters. Eldritch Wizardry. Then he tried to unify it all with AD&D. If D&D has a tradition, its change, growth and expansion. If it didn't, we'd all just have STR INT and WIS. - Orcus
Everytime I see the topic come up everyone seems to want to blame the glut of D20 products that were crappy and label the downfall of the FLGS on that glut. Everyone tends to gloss over the FLGS's responsibility for their share of the problem. Stores who blindly bought any D20 book and/or overstocked the D20 stuff probably were hurt and that's mostly their own fault. D20 was a new market anyone who blindly jumped to that market without researching it or moving in with a plan wasn't very smart. The market's not going anywhere why not play it smart and pick the books you know will move and then bring in some fringe products to support those lines. To many times did I see FLGS, especially smallers ones, stock any and everything D20. There was no reason to go over board and stock everythign you can get yoru hands on. There was nothing forcing them to bring in so many books so quickly, I mean common what happened did the RPG truck pull up and just dump the books on them out of the blue?
There's really no reason for that old product to still be in store either, there are a variety of ways that stores could move that product out, granted it might not be at a full or even any profit but if the survival of your store depends on you making a full profit on each and every item then you probably need to reevaluate your business model. Get that old crap out it is a sunk cost and take what money oyou can get and reinvest it in new stock after doing some research in the market.
Meh. They see d20 title associated with D&D like they see PS3 title associated with Playstation.
But as time goes on, both retailers and distributors know better, almost to the point of not stocking up small print press products. Just the more successful now-major publishers.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
My FLGS seriously considered not stocking anymore RPGs that weren't made by White Wolf or Wizards because of it, and ended up having to give away tons of d20 products as "freebies" with other products.
If they stocked that much material they couldn't sell, then they have an expertise problem. You don't need to order a dozen copies, one or two is more than enough for most products unless your pretty sure they'll sell (such as most WotC/WW titles). If they sell you can always reorder (most game stores order once or twice a week).
You don't run a computer store if you don't know what computers do and how you can effectively sell them, the same goes for game stores. There are far to many game stores started by game enthusiasts, they dive in deep, the problem is that a lot of them don't have much of a business sense. Then it's easier to blame a product or a market for their own failures.
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
If they stocked that much material they couldn't sell, then they have an expertise problem. You don't need to order a dozen copies, one or two is more than enough for most products unless your pretty sure they'll sell (such as most WotC/WW titles). If they sell you can always reorder (most game stores order once or twice a week).
We're not just talking about what they normally ordered. We're talking about returns (in the second week after 3e was released, there was a huge amount of d20 returns as people realized they had purchased trash), specific orders that people never picked up after reading reviews online (I remember a few copies of Foundation collecting dust because of exactly this issue), and trade-ins for store credit as well (which this store has a long history of, because they support their gamers wanting to try new things and receive compensation for old things)... now, he could have refused returns and trade-ins in order to prevent from losing that money (since he couldn't return a single thing to the distributors), but it would have definitely had a negative effect on our local gaming community. A company shouldn't have to choose between keeping customers happy and making money... those two things should go hand-in-hand. And finally, after the urging of many long-time customers, they've now posted a clear policy of "No d20 products can be returned, except WotC D&D books."
Quote:
There are far to many game stores started by game enthusiasts, they dive in deep, the problem is that a lot of them don't have much of a business sense. Then it's easier to blame a product or a market for their own failures.
The owner of this store is more business savvy than most non-gamers I know. He turned a small, hole-in-the-wall store (which he was an employee at, until he bought out the owner) into a thriving game shop, moving locations twice to larger locations and opening up a second branch. This isn't a matter of him failing to understand the market, it's more a matter of the d20 brand having been poisoned early on.
__________________ Formerly known as Mourn...
Spoiler:
This sounds like a Fantasy Heartbreaker, slouching towards Bethlehem, waiting to be still-born. - Particle Man
Spoiler:
Every edition moves us closer to a better game, in my view. And guess what, 4E will screw some stuff up, just like 3E made monster design a horrific, creativity squashing nightmare (ok, I'm overstating it, yes, you could still make real cool monsters, but it became more of a rules lawyer-y cookie cutter solution which I don't favor). 4E will do things wrong. Maybe it will be that 1st level characters will be too powerful. I don't know. But experimenting is the way to do it--and, as it so happens, it is the TRADITION of D&D. Gary, god rest his soul, didn't stop with the white box. He did Greyhawk. Blackmoor. He added new classes. Psionics. New monsters. Eldritch Wizardry. Then he tried to unify it all with AD&D. If D&D has a tradition, its change, growth and expansion. If it didn't, we'd all just have STR INT and WIS. - Orcus
Returns: Don't know the policy in the US, but here you have a certain right to return items within an x amount of time. I really don't see this happening to scores of books. Even if he had a hundred books returned in two weeks, this shouldn't kill his store. He could either have a serious talk with the distributer (having sold substandard products ;-), or sold them at a heavy discount (50% off gets people to buy even crap).
Trade-ins: Here is that competency issue, you don't blindly buy up at a fixed rate, even if it pleases your customers (or you shouldn't complain if it comes back to bite you in the ass). Buy only what you can reasonably expect to sell, at a price that's way below buying from the distributer. If you already have product x collecting dust for weeks, you don't buy any more!
Impact on community: That business is not there to be used as a buffer for consumers that buy anything without looking at reviews or buying everything sight unseen nd shove the owner with the repercussions. On the other hand the owner seems to be ok with it...
Quote:
A company shouldn't have to choose between keeping customers happy and making money...
This is reality, while in theory I agree with you, this just doesn't happen that often. First you make money, then you worry about keeping your customers happy. If you do it the other way around, chances are that you won't be long enough in business to be remembered by your customers.
A lot of game stores rode the Magic wave since 1993, the Pokemon wave since 1998, and Yu-gi-oh! wave post 2001. Remember those mythical stories of the hay days of WotC, when Magic was at it's pinnacle? Those were good times for games stores as well, D20 was received by a lot of folks as the next 'big' thing, so they bought more then they should, more then was financially sound. The same thing happened on the Internet, it was called the dot com bubble, business overextending. The reason a lot of stores went belly up was because they overextended themselves because they followed the hype and the hype wasn't always what it was supposed to be. Those who bet well, made a lot of money, those that didn't, lost it all. I think it's wrong to put the blame with the products and their producers, they only provided what the consumers demanded (within their capability, expertise and budget). If D20 didn't happen, I am confident that the same thing would have happened, instead of spending too much resources on RPG books, too many resources would have been spent on CCGs or mini games that came out in 2000.
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
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