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RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
We have lost one of the best adventure writing publishers due to the delay.
Please get the GSL in the hands of other publishers so we don't lose any more.
I wouldn't say we've "lost" them. More like they're not going to be an early adopter for sure, and their entry into the 4e market will likely be in a smaller way, next year, assuming they enter.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
My uninformed guess is that the Hasbro suits intervened. I can't imagine any other reason why the GSL would still be missing after being promised in November.
And now it's cost 4E Paizo. Talk about shooting one's self in the foot.
My uninformed guess is that the Hasbro suits intervened. I can't imagine any other reason why the GSL would still be missing after being promised in November.
And now it's cost 4E Paizo. Talk about shooting one's self in the foot.
Ken
Actually, I don't think it's cost 4E anything. It's cost Paizo what they would've gained by being an early adopter.
And it's going to cost them a lot of customers. Quite honestly, Paizo's decision just bumped them from near the top of my list for third-party 4E products right down to the bottom.
Actually, I don't think it's cost 4E anything. It's cost Paizo what they would've gained by being an early adopter.
And it's going to cost them a lot of customers. Quite honestly, Paizo's decision just bumped them from near the top of my list for third-party 4E products right down to the bottom.
I'm the opposite. Paizo not moving to 4th Edition is really putting some pressure on my decision to move to that edition at all. Paizo are more in line with my style of play, and I'll stick with them.
And how would you propose that Paizo be an early adopter, when they still don't even know on what terms they would be allowed to write 4E compatible products? WoTC took that option away from them.
As for lost customers, as things stand now Paizo may end up inheriting the base of people who want to stick with 3.5. Even if that's 10% of the total, it's a huge win for them.
And like the previous poster, Paizo's decision to stick with 3.X makes me less likely to switch to 4E. Their adventures were by far the best of the 3E adventures , after all.
I'm the opposite. Paizo not moving to 4th Edition is really putting some pressure on my decision to move to that edition at all. Paizo are more in line with my style of play, and I'll stick with them.
My uninformed guess is that the Hasbro suits intervened. I can't imagine any other reason why the GSL would still be missing after being promised in November.
And now it's cost 4E Paizo. Talk about shooting one's self in the foot.
Ken
I fail to see how shunting a competitor into back-burnersville of 3e nostalgia is shooting oneself in the foot. Somehow, I think they'll survive.
Location: In a state of regret for allowing myself to get so damned fat.
Posts: 588
I agree with the OP. WotC should be ashamed at the delay.
Paizo's move was somewhat forced upon them yet, despite that, I fear it was a very poor choice for their company and a very regrettable day for the gaming industry.
Not sure what else to say. Sorta surprised and saddened in equal measure.
W.P.
__________________ Quoted because I can feel it, but I can't say it as well as Piratecat. To whit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piratecat
On 4E: So far my initial concerns aren't justified. There is just as much roleplaying, just as much behind-the-scenes maneuvering, and just as much character interaction -- with far easier DM prep, faster and more tactically rich combat (now that the learning curve for each player's powers is diminishing), and a longer adventuring day. Yeah, I'm having a blast.
I fail to see how shunting a competitor into back-burnersville of 3e nostalgia is shooting oneself in the foot...
Up until today, Paizo wasn't a competitor for WotC, but rather a complimentary business partner - quite simply, the adventure paths helped sell WotC hardbacks, both before and after the transition from Dungeon to Pathfinder. And while WotC didn't cause themselves real harm with the delay of the GSL, they have lost an opportunity to line up another partner to help create the killer app package that will drive 4e sales.
I'm not going to say that I'll never buy third party products, but they play essentially zero factor in my 'switching' decision. I hope Paizo endures their year or so of obstinance, and I hope to see them publish for 4e in the future. I may even take a gander at their 4e products, even though I'm not in the habit of buying published adventures.
Also, WotC definitely should have got the GSL out months and months ago.
__________________ Not all bean-counting is of equal importance. ~Mallus
Sometimes I think people view gaming as practice for law school than as an enjoyable leisure activity. ~Professor Phobos
Some people enjoy building sandcastles. Others enjoy kicking them over. ~Wormwood
I'm not going to say that I'll never buy third party products, but they play essentially zero factor in my 'switching' decision. I hope Paizo endures their year or so of obstinance, and I hope to see them publish for 4e in the future. I may even take a gander at their 4e products, even though I'm not in the habit of buying published adventures.
Also, WotC definitely should have got the GSL out months and months ago.
I'll second this. It's affecting me both as a gamer and as a would-be freelance designer.
__________________ K.L.B.
"I've got a steerin' wheel in me pants!"
"Ye do?"
"Aye, it's drivin' me nuts!" - Puke & Snot
They aren't being obstinant... they simply have no choice in the matter. Also, Paizo now publishes Necromancer Games products and from what we know NG will still be switching to 4E. Two markets instead of one isn't a 'bad' decision.
I don't know. I think that starting your own, backwards compatible, 3.5+ RPG, marketting straight at the abused children of 3.5, that is in open playtesting for the next year kinda means that they're not planning on touching 4th Ed at all. At least not unless they're willing to eat a heck of a lot of crow a year or more down the line.
My uninformed guess is that the Hasbro suits intervened. I can't imagine any other reason why the GSL would still be missing after being promised in November.
The GSL delay is really puzzling. WTH is going on?
Quote:
And now it's cost 4E Paizo. Talk about shooting one's self in the foot.
However I don't know that this delay has cost them Paizo. Erik Mona was talking about doing a possible 3.75 soon after the original 4e announcement and I don't recall much positive comment from anyone at Paizo about the new edition. They never seemed enthusiastic about it, and obviously they've been working on Pathfinder RPG for some time.
I'm more worried that it'll cost Wizards the support Necromancer Games, as Clark has shown real interest. They should just sign him up as a freelancer so he can see the rules.
I agree with the OP. WotC should be ashamed at the delay.
Paizo's move was somewhat forced upon them yet, despite that, I fear it was a very poor choice for their company and a very regrettable day for the gaming industry.
Not sure what else to say. Sorta surprised and saddened in equal measure.
W.P.
I'm with Gareth Michael Skarka and Chris Pramas on this one: "I'm not exaggerating at all when I say this: Paizo has just single-handedly insured that there will be a commercially-viable audience for non-4E D&D releases, industry-wide. Bravo." From here; "I can easily envision 4E and Pathfinder both being successful for their parent companies." from here.
I sincerely hope that all of these ventures - 4th Edition, Necromancer's move to develop for 4th Edition before seeing the GSL, Pathfinder, etc. - pay off. And, with some cautious reservation, I think they all might.
1. Gygax co-creates basic rules framework.
2. Arneson uses these in his game, adds crucial innovations.
3. Gygax expands these innovations and markets them as D&D.
4. Gygax subsequently expands the D&D rules by creating AD&D, which bears _much_ more similarity to the current version of D&D than the 1974 original boxed set, and certainly than Arneson's loose notes about how he ran his personal campaign.
5. diaglo runs around proclaiming: OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.
The GSL delay is really puzzling. WTH is going on?
Every post I've seen by WotC employees has hinted that the legal issues are the delay. My guess is that WotC/Hasbro wants the license to be a very specific way, which means when the lawyers say "This doesn't fit what you wanted," the WotC team has to rewrite that part, and the lawyers have to start over again to determine how the change affects the rest of the GSL now.
In other words, they're stuck in an infinite lawyer loop.
Linear Mode
