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RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
View Poll Results: How would you bet on 4E licensing?
Totally open. OGL used once again.
3
2.26%
More restricted. License only like d20 STL/GSL.
50
37.59%
Very restricted. No general license; unique deals signed with preferred publishers.
I'm interested in how folks would bet on WOTC licensing for the 4E rules. Currently we're at the start of April with no released license that we know of. Pick what you think is most likely at this point.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
I'm guessing/hoping that they'll have something on this front at GTS in a couple of weeks.
Remembering voices of the past:
*It'll be in your hands by the end of Oct.
*Now that they're putting it in binders, 3rd party companies should see something soon.
*Probably just after the holidays
*Now that NDAs have been signed, it'll be here by the end of Jan.
*They've announced that its going to be called the GSL, that means it has to be close to done.
*They're vetting their policy on open gaming.
Sorry, but "wolf" has been called a few to many times for me to get my hopes up anymore. Pathfinder RPG for me.
I don't know if we'll see anything before Gen Con at this rate. I think there is a significant rethinking of the GSL going on right now. A new WotC president who's claim to fame is Global Branding Methodology might have an opinion on the GSL, yea or nay.
I believe there are enough proponents of the GSL at WotC to get it through. I think it will be a fight, however, and will take a while. Origins or GenCon or never.
My last rant on the GSL until something even pseudo official is announced. My hope is that 4th Ed is open but I just have the gut feeling that it won't (either a restricted, limited or no license at all). I just wish WOTC would have just come out and said what the deal was way back at the initial announcement and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
If 4th Ed ends up being under limited or restricted license, my hope (and sort of a challenge for WOTC) is that the open up all the 3.5 crunch (Complete ..., Spell Compendium, PHBII et al) to the 3rd party publishers. What does this tell me? It's sort of a comprise. They still believe in some sort of open gaming and that they believe enough in 4th Ed that it can stand the competition.
And no. I am not trying to any 3.5 vs 4.0 thing here. That dead horse has been beaten into a very thin bloody paste.
If 4th Ed ends up being under limited or restricted license, my hope (and sort of a challenge for WOTC) is that the open up all the 3.5 crunch (Complete ..., Spell Compendium, PHBII et al) to the 3rd party publishers. What does this tell me? It's sort of a comprise. They still believe in some sort of open gaming and that they believe enough in 4th Ed that it can stand the competition.
I think of all scenarios, this one is the least likely to happen. WotC may expect competition, but they aren't going to actively aid their biggest competitor; and 4E's biggest competitor, whether it's open, restricted, or closed, is going to be 3.5E. And that's not even taking into account the time and effort they'd have to devote to updating the SRD with the new information.
I really wish more 3.5E material from WotC was in the SRD, but I don't think it'll ever see another update.
I think of all scenarios, this one is the least likely to happen. WotC may expect competition, but they aren't going to actively aid their biggest competitor; and 4E's biggest competitor, whether it's open, restricted, or closed, is going to be 3.5E. And that's not even taking into account the time and effort they'd have to devote to updating the SRD with the new information.
I really wish more 3.5E material from WotC was in the SRD, but I don't think it'll ever see another update.
Very very true. But we can always have wishful thinking.
My expectation (not prediction) is that 4e will be extremely closed, with a window dressing license so WotC can say, "look, it is out there". It is probably not going to be a perpetual license, and after a few years, I expect it will be substituted with some sort of contractual 3rd party agreement on an individual basis. And if DDI catches on, not even that.
What I find more interesting is that it is not going to be an unpopular move at all - it seems to me that since about the release of 3.5 and the collapse of the d20 market, there has been a very strong "official materials only" movement which believes in a certain "game design magic" Wizards of the Coast, and only Wizards of the Coast, is supposed to have. A lot of these folks are remarkably hostile not only to 3rd party materials but the very idea of allowing them to exist. Just read the recent threads.
Open gaming will be gone, and not with lengthy protestations - rather, with a whimper and a sigh.
__________________ "5. If they do not wish to take a few risks, their characters should stay home and become shopkeepers and farmers.
Then wish them luck!" -- Gary Gygax: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
"Dragons are so Beowulf! Should DnD be in the business of selling 1200 year-olds back their childhood? Sheesh." -- gizmo33, on the power of nostalgia
My expectation (not prediction) is that 4e will be extremely closed, with a window dressing license so WotC can say, "look, it is out there".
I'm hoping it's the second option, a more restrictive license but not a "only a few licenses who pay a significant fee" version. The silence from WoTC however worries me, so I'm starting to feel it's more likely the third option on the poll.
Quote:
What I find more interesting is that it is not going to be an unpopular move at all - it seems to me that since about the release of 3.5 and the collapse of the d20 market, there has been a very strong "official materials only" movement which believes in a certain "game design magic" Wizards of the Coast, and only Wizards of the Coast, is supposed to have. A lot of these folks are remarkably hostile not only to 3rd party materials but the very idea of allowing them to exist. Just read the recent threads.
The "official stuff only" has existed for a long time. Most people usually care about the core product or brand. This exists in other media too. I'm surprised more comics readers care more about the character that the writer--I was so disappointed when Chris Claremont left X-Men in the early 90s and sales still went upward on the books. Heck, some people refuse to go outside one company's output--there are still "Marvel Zombies", for instance. Same thing with gaming--there were people who never tried a game not published by TSR, for example. People are even less loyal to gaming writers than to comic/fiction writers--you can get people who buy only Gary Gygax or Monte Cook works, for instance, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the game world and setting.
I think realistically, most people purchased official D&D stuff and stuck with it. I had more discriminating tastes, for instance, seeing WoTC lose a lot of the TSR culture I felt was important to D&D, and ignored some of the later D&D 3e stuff for products from Monte Cook and Green Ronin.
I also think maybe some people are or were irritated with the more "dogmatic" viewpoints about the OGL. I think having a license is wonderful but I would get irritated with people who would blast Monte Cook or other publishers for having "crippled OGL", or react with umbrage when I would mention that it might not be seen as nice to take Unearthed Arcana, True20, and other rules and put them on-line for free. Ultimately, most of us want to play the game and purchase quality products, so maybe some of that dismissiveness is a reaction to the more zealous viewpoints towards the OGL.
Ultimately, I think most people just want to play the game. Open Gaming for Open Gaming's sake is a minority viewpoint. We don't need an OGL to create our worlds and modules in private, and the OGL itself isn't required for the D&D system to be licensed. (I do hope there is a GSL with enough leeway). As long as Wizards doesn't get lawsuit happy and attack people putting personal campaign information on-line I don't see much of a backlash to the licensing issue.
I think more people are going to be put off by the radical game changes than any license change when it comes to 4e support. I would actually feel proud if a significant block of players stuck with 3.x+ rules, it would show that people aren't slaves to the brand, but based on past experience I wonder if that would be a reality. Nobody's on top forever, but there seems to be enough excitement and enthusiasm for D&D 4e.
Last edited by JohnRTroy; 5th April 2008 at 04:05 PM..
Reason: Clarified a few things.
What I find more interesting is that it is not going to be an unpopular move at all - it seems to me that since about the release of 3.5 and the collapse of the d20 market, there has been a very strong "official materials only" movement which believes in a certain "game design magic" Wizards of the Coast, and only Wizards of the Coast, is supposed to have. A lot of these folks are remarkably hostile not only to 3rd party materials but the very idea of allowing them to exist. Just read the recent threads.
Open gaming will be gone, and not with lengthy protestations - rather, with a whimper and a sigh.
I find the shift pretty remarkable as well. Do you think WoTC does 'Guerilla Marketing' on these boards? I have noticed that a lot of the anti-OGL/pro-Hasbro posts come from accounts with very low post counts, which have recently become extremely prolific. And when I look at the posting history, it's defense of 4E and nothing else.
It's a major bother to me, personally, since by far the biggest beneficiaries of my gaming dollars have been, in order, Necromancer, Green Ronin, Troll Lords, Kenzer, Malhavoc, and then a host of other companies. The WotC portion of my gaming library has always been small, and quite frankly, it's been shrinking for a couple of years now. I've felt, again - personally, that the best D&D 3.x books, once you are past the core and a handful of other books, are done by third party publishers. I stopped even bothering with most WotC books about two years ago. I feel that their quality went through the floor around then.
So, without a strong 3rd party presence, I'm pretty much done with WotC. Of course, since I have no plans to go 4the Edition, that's probably no loss to WotC. But it a major loss for me, if WotC nixes third party support and all the companies I have supported all these years go the way of the dodo.
So, without a strong 3rd party presence, I'm pretty much done with WotC. Of course, since I have no plans to go 4the Edition, that's probably no loss to WotC. But it a major loss for me, if WotC nixes third party support and all the companies I have supported all these years go the way of the dodo.
I don't follow your point here. Since you had no plans to go to 4E anyway what do you care about at this point regarding 3rd parties? I mean even if 4e is open you aren't going to support these 3rd parties anyway, aren't you?
I don't follow your point here. Since you had no plans to go to 4E anyway what do you care about at this point regarding 3rd parties? I mean even if 4e is open you aren't going to support these 3rd parties anyway, aren't you?
It is probable, and I'd guess likely, that 3rd party publishers would likely support both systems for as long as it is viable. Unlike WotC, which obviously has discontinued all 3.x support. But more than likely, if 4th Edition is not OGL, my top favorite publisher Necromancer has already said in clear terms that they are closing their doors. My other current favorite, Troll Lords, will have to rely solely on C&C. I don't know what Green Ronin's intentions are, but they rely I think on the occasional non-True20 materials to supplement their lines. The rest of the publishers, the really small ones, are already dying and who know who will be left whatever WotC decides.
It is probable, and I'd guess likely, that 3rd party publishers would likely support both systems for as long as it is viable. Unlike WotC, which obviously has discontinued all 3.x support. But more than likely, if 4th Edition is not OGL, my top favorite publisher Necromancer has already said in clear terms that they are closing their doors. My other current favorite, Troll Lords, will have to rely solely on C&C. I don't know what Green Ronin's intentions are, but they rely I think on the occasional non-True20 materials to supplement their lines. The rest of the publishers, the really small ones, are already dying and who know who will be left whatever WotC decides.
As long as it is viable for companies to support both channels, it is still viable to support the one that is limited to them, whichever that is. What I mean is that you are not going to lose any company's support because of 4e being closed. Those that won't support 3e anymore they wouldn't even if 4e were open.
I find the shift pretty remarkable as well. Do you think WoTC does 'Guerilla Marketing' on these boards? I have noticed that a lot of the anti-OGL/pro-Hasbro posts come from accounts with very low post counts, which have recently become extremely prolific. And when I look at the posting history, it's defense of 4E and nothing else.
Ken
No, I don't really think that is the case... it wouldn't be too productive, even in such a large community, and I doubt WotC is subtle or even malicious enough to pull it off. When their marketing does guerilla marketing, it is that video with the French guy.
It is, I think, some sort of natural attitude shift among fans. I have been seeing it for a long time (more strongly regimented play, emphasis on an official stance, disdain for variants and house rules, sometimes extending to DM powers), 4e just brought it into the light.
__________________ "5. If they do not wish to take a few risks, their characters should stay home and become shopkeepers and farmers.
Then wish them luck!" -- Gary Gygax: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
"Dragons are so Beowulf! Should DnD be in the business of selling 1200 year-olds back their childhood? Sheesh." -- gizmo33, on the power of nostalgia
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