Could somebody please explain to me how you sell a PDF without any website at all?

[Michael Morris]

Well, so much for 4e PDF's

Originally Posted by GSL

This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites,

PDF's are advertised on and sold through website - and while it may not be WotC's intent this legal phrasing effectively bans PDF's outright. It also puts all D&D fan sites in legal limbo and bans them from carrying any elements of 4e. As I said before, when does ENWorld get it's cease & desist? I was being sarcastic, but the more I think of it I can't escape the conclusion.

interactive products,

Indefensibly broad. Interactive product can refer to any toy or book since you interact with it. "Interactive electronic products" is more to the point - I'm not a lawyer but I can see that much.

miniatures,

Fair enough.

or character creators;

At one point Scott mentioned the GSL would be no more restrictive on this than the d20STL was. Well, plans must have changed.

(b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character;

So new classes are right out since their description requires you explain what benefits the class gives at each level - gotcha.

(f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

Or be hosted on a website right? Well, I hope no one posts any 4e GSL licensed stuff on the board.

I had at one point actually started looking forward to using 4e. I can't now. It is important to me to be able to use all my skills in the creation of materials for my players and setting - this especially includes my programming skills. 4e is no longer available to me. Long live the OGL.

[jaldaen]

I don't know the answers to most of your concerns, but the FAQ has this ti say about classes:

Q: Can I define a new class?
A: Yes.

I remember a similar reaction when 3e came out and many thought... how can I describe a class without character creation (WotC had a very strict definition of it in 3e... it seems the same holds here).

[Alzrius]

Michael, my understanding is that a website that sells GSL products is just a vendor - it's not a GSL product itself, and doesn't need to obey any of the GSL's restrictions.

[DiasExMachina]

My interpretation led me to believe you could not have a website that was mentioned IN the product, as in some other source the company could receive income from. I think you can still advertise the product and sell it online as well as have a company website.

[JohnRTroy]

I'm pretty sure it's a Web Site by itself, which is either a "product" because it's akin to a printed work, or even an interactive-game akin to AdventureQuest or the hundreds of other "free games" out there.

[jmucchiello]

I just sailed right past that without a thought. You can't license a website with the GSL is what it means. How is that unclear?

[Michael Morris]

Originally Posted by jmucchiello

I just sailed right past that without a thought. You can't license a website with the GSL is what it means. How is that unclear?

Loosest possible definition of website - a page with a URL. A PDF distributed online has a URL. If the PDF has a homepage that describes it to entice you to buy it (most do) then that too is banned.

Remember in law the spirit means nothing, the letter is all. And this contract is extremely draconian if you read it in the worst possible way - which is what you must be prepared to defend if you enter into it.

[DanMcS]

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

Loosest possible definition of website - a page with a URL. A PDF distributed online has a URL. If the PDF has a homepage that describes it to entice you to buy it (most do) then that too is banned.

Except that PDFs are explicitly mentioned as allowed licensed products, and additionally,

Originally Posted by Section 4.2

Licensee may additionally utilize the Compatibility Logo in advertisements and marketing materials (including without limitation, website listings and catalogs) for Licensed Products,...

And again, the "homepage for a PDF" is not a licensed product, the PDF itself is. The homepage of the PDF, for instance, um, let me grab a random pdf ad page, is marketing materials, which are, again, specifically allowed.

So even if you read the license unnecessarily uncharitably, they explicitly allowed the cases you are complaining about.

[arscott]

(b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character;

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

So new classes are right out since their description requires you explain what benefits the class gives at each level - gotcha.

The exact same sentence appeared in the d20 stl, and it didn't stop anyone from creating new classes for 3e.

It's meant to prevent 3rd parties from printing things like "how to create a character" chapter and experience charts, not from printing actual classes.

[Gilwen]

I agree. I think it's a strech to say you can't make a class. Even if your product says something like UberClass's AwesomePower increases at 11th 13th and 20th by 1d6 you're ok because that isn't describing how you level up. create, or apply experience to your character. This is also specifically called out in the FAQ as being possible.

Gil

[xechnao]

Originally Posted by DanMcS

Except that PDFs are explicitly mentioned as allowed licensed products, and additionally,

PDF distribution does not have to be online. PDFs are distributed with CDs too.

[DanMcS]

Originally Posted by xechnao

PDF distribution does not have to be online. PDFs are distributed with CDs too.

The license mentions PDFs being downloaded. You'd have to be in extreme WotC-hateon mode to think that they would have written the license intending PDFs to be only for sale via physical media, not over these newfangled internet tubes.

[xechnao]

Originally Posted by DanMcS

The license mentions PDFs being downloaded. You'd have to be in extreme WotC-hateon mode to think that they would have written the license intending PDFs to be only for sale via physical media, not over these newfangled internet tubes.

You're right. Yes, it's late here -forgot about mentioning downloading. But then, there are ftps
Dunno. Perhaps they have the best of intentions but you must also consider what's the exact law situation as Morris said.

[Verequus]

Originally Posted by DanMcS

The homepage of the PDF, for instance, um, let me grab a random pdf ad page, is marketing materials, which are, again, specifically allowed.

That reminded me of the following:

int random() {
      return 4; // Determined by a fair dice roll
}

[Yair]

Yeah, I think a guiding principle of contract law is that all secions has to make sense together, and in conjunction with the license allowing promotional material and publishing pdfs I think it can't reasonably be argued that the online sale of pdfs isn't allowed. The quotes in the OP have to be interpreted in line with the other sections of the document.

As for ENWorld, it is as always in legal limbo. Without a clear fan-site policy it isn't clear what is allowed, and even if one is provided it is of course liable to change at Wizard's whim (but then, so is the GSL). Arguably all of ENWorld is allowed under Fair Use, regardless of Wizards' wishes - arguably.

[Morrus]

Michael, ove rhalf of what you just quoted was in the d20 STL. You weren't allowed character creation or advancement in that, either. Presenting a new class or race is not, and has never been, included in the definition of "rules for character creation".

As for the website thing - you don't release a website under the GSL. People have been not releasing websites under the GSL for many years. EN World is not released under the GSL, the OGL or the d20 SRD.

You're inventing problems where there are none.

[Gilwen]

Originally Posted by Verequus

That reminded me of the following:

int random() {
      return 4; // Determined by a fair dice roll
}

LMAO! I'm stealing that for my .sig!

Gil

[Jraynack]

It merely stops websites like http://www.d20srd.org/ or doing what WotC is doing with Dungeon and Dragon - making online magazines (or print magazines, but that's another issue).

It also stops what Monte Cook and others did with Arcana Unearthed and Iron Heroes (True20 also comes to mind) (i.e. stand alone player's handbooks where you didn't need the core rules to play the d20 system). Initially, WotC thought that merely keeping publishers from using the d20 logo would stop them from reprinting the player's handbook that talks about character creation.

Well, they were wrong and the GSL makes sure that won't happen again.

[lurkinglidda]

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

So new classes are right out

Incorrect. Per the GSL FAQ:
Q: Can I define a new class?
A: Yes.

[DanMcS]

Originally Posted by Verequus

That reminded me of the following:

int random() {
      return 4; // Determined by a fair dice roll
}

It wasn't truly random, it was, "I need an example, who has a page on their site for every individual product? Green ronin does! Browse browse browse, there's one!"

And it is a perfectly good example of a page which would be considered marketing stuff under the GSL.

:P