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RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
You have my deepest sympathies for the storm of anger you are about to have to smile in the face off. I can't imagine what this license would have looked like without the fight you say you put forth.
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
You have my deepest sympathies for the storm of anger you are about to have to smile in the face off. I can't imagine what this license would have looked like without the fight you say you put forth.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
You have my deepest sympathies for the storm of anger you are about to have to smile in the face off. I can't imagine what this license would have looked like without the fight you say you put forth.
Yep, no anger from me towards Scott and Linae, and I can only imagine how bad the license would be without them.
Hyrum.
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R. Hyrum Savage
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Yep, no anger from me towards Scott and Linae, and I can only imagine how bad the license would be without them.
Hyrum.
To be honest...I think WOTC saying at the 4e announcement "No open license, sorry" would have been better for all concerned than to drag this out this long, keeping a lot of companies unable fully formulate business plans, and then produce something which many in the field have said does not meet their needs, after all. Again, I have to point to how the original OGL/STL was crafted with full interactivity with likely licensees, and the GSL was formed in secret, with no input/comments/concerns. The process of getting reactions and making changes should have begun in January of '09; it's only beginning now, and I'm being optimistic that WOTC/Hasbro will make changes in response to legitimate concerns, especially the ability to 'fall back' on the OGL if/when the GSL is pulled. The OGL/STL combo allowed publishers to securely print, knowing that even if the D20 program was dropped, they could keep viable products/lines in production indefinitely. The GSL says that the lifespan of your product is exactly equal to the lifespan of the GSL, and there's no reason to assume that the lifespan of the GSL will be equal to the lifespan of 4e.
To be honest...I think WOTC saying at the 4e announcement "No open license, sorry" would have been better for all concerned than to drag this out this long, keeping a lot of companies unable fully formulate business plans, and then produce something which many in the field have said does not meet their needs, after all.
QFT. Compared to this, I honestly would have preferred no license at all. It's just that bad.
Well, that's fine to say, but you shouldn't speak for all publishers. Just because you prefer the OGL and don't like the restrictions doesn't mean you should make the judgment that no license would be better--let the people decide if they want to make GSL products.
You have my deepest sympathies for the storm of anger you are about to have to smile in the face off. I can't imagine what this license would have looked like without the fight you say you put forth.
The sad thing is, pretty much everything they say from this point out is...if not meaningless, at least nothing to take to the bank. WotC could change their stance at any time, for any reason.
Well, that's fine to say, but you shouldn't speak for all publishers. Just because you prefer the OGL and don't like the restrictions doesn't mean you should make the judgment that no license would be better--let the people decide if they want to make GSL products.
I was unaware I'd been empowered to make that decision for other people. Wow! I am LIKE UNTO A GOD!
If I say "I really don't like the guy who was elected. I think someone else should have won.", does that mean I am somehow cancelling other people's votes, or expressing a desire to do so?
If I say, "I hated the Star Wars Prequels. They should have just stuck to the original three.", will George Lucas recall them all from the DVD racks?
I stated an opinion. You may disagree with it, which is fine, but you seem to be attacking my right to state it.
As it is, I might still do work under the GSL, if anyone is going to be publishing under it, or take a chance with my own line of PDFs, which offer minimal risk of loss. I'm also looking at Pathfinder, as I suspect a lot of people are. I don't consider a willingness to use the GSL while considering it an inferior license is hypocritical. This is, as many have noted, what we've got, and it's way too early to see how things will shake out. In a perfect world, 4e was released under the OGL, with a revised Trademark license which would make the logo worthwhile. In a somewhat less perfect world, WOTC would have said "No open license" and made deals with specific publishers as needed. In our world, we have the GSL, and I'm not going to ignore it because it isn't as good as it could be, but I expect my opportunities, both as a freelancer and a (hopeful) self publisher, will be limited.
My point above was not "The GSL is utterly worthless!", but, rather, that if there had been none announced or expected, the process of "forking" D&D that Pathfinder has begun would have started in August, 2007, and by Gencon 2008, some sort of core rules, "bought into" by several major D20 publishers, would have been on sale at GenCon. I can see where WOTC desperately did not want this scenario to occur (and almost certainly knew it would), and using "bait and switch" tactics with the GSL (August, 2007:"It will be released under the OGL". December, 2007:"We have a revised OGL, pay us 5 grand." January, 2007 "Did we say OGL? We meant GSL." Feb, Mar, April 2007:"Any day now...", May 2007:"June 6!", June 6, 2007:"Next week!") looks just a little bit underhanded, even if every statement made was believed true at the time. It takes a certain degree of faith to believe there is no connection between the "nightmare scenario" of a multi-publisher 3.5 clone being on sale within two months of 4e and the long delay in the GSL which kept a lot of publishers from committing one way or the other. Based on the comments by people who know the people involved, I will say I do believe that there was no planned larceny and that it was all a series of corporate snafus and miscommunications.
Well, that's fine to say, but you shouldn't speak for all publishers. Just because you prefer the OGL and don't like the restrictions doesn't mean you should make the judgment that no license would be better--let the people decide if they want to make GSL products.
The same tired old song...
__________________ Mikael Borjesson, Sweden
The Titan of Titan Games
Keeper of the swedish D&D translations
We have a choice; it's called the OGL. That said, I think that in this case no choice for 4E-compatible products would have been better than this monstrosity. The GSL has negative effects, by way of its restrictions, that it imposes on a company forever, far outliving its termination. It would have been better not to offer it in the first place, since that would've solidified the OGL community more.
Quote:
If publishers don't use the license, the net effect is the same. If they do use it, there's a gain compared to a total lack of the GSL.
Look at the eternal restrictions. There's a net loss there, and it lasts forever, unlike the gains (which only last until the GSL is revoked).
Quote:
I'm not happy about the current state, but pragmatically, it's still better than nothing.
If there had been a "No license" announcement alongside the 4e announcement, there would, now, be a much more robust "post WOTC" 3x environment, instead of one just beginning to coalesce. That's why it would have been better to have none, announced honestly, than one which went through constant changes, came late, and is seemingly designed so that publishers will be very limited in what they can do, and will be smacked down if they try to stretch the limits, even under the terms of the license. The inability to reproduce stat blocks in adventures, for example, makes third party products more cumbersome than WOTC products. The "no redefinitions of defined terms" clause means anyone making a druid or bard class risks having their products become invalid if there's a new GSL -- and that means constantly second-guessing WOTC.
There's other problems.
According to the license, you can "upgrade" any OGL product. In the Tome of Horrors, there's a big fat demon prince called "Orcus". This was licensed properly to Necromancer and is Open Game Content. If Necromancer were to go ahead and produce TOH 4e, technically, they'd be able to use any OGC in that product -- including Orcus. How would that interact with the removal of Orcus from the list of "defined terms"?
Overall, it seems odd to me that anything which underwent such a protracted period of development -- remember, as soon as WOTC decided there would be a 4e, they had to know they'd have to do something about how the OGL with interact with it -- comes to us with so many open issues.
We have a choice; it's called the OGL. That said, I think that in this case no choice for 4E-compatible products would have been better than this monstrosity. The GSL has negative effects, by way of its restrictions, that it imposes on a company forever, far outliving its termination.
*shrug* - only for one product line and the products. It's not like it's they're springing a trap on you. Furthermore, previously you had the choice between (for a single product/product line): OGL and non-publishing. Now you have the choice between: OGL, non-publishing, and GSL-exclusive publishing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzrius
It would have been better not to offer it in the first place, since that would've solidified the OGL community more.
Ah, you're coming from there - I could also say: The negative reaction to the GSL solidifies the OGL community more than ever, especially as Pathfinder, a viable alternative, is already there and can catch all people not going GSL (which are now aggravated due to the restrictive GSL and hence actively search an alternative!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizard
Overall, it seems odd to me that anything which underwent such a protracted period of development -- remember, as soon as WOTC decided there would be a 4e, they had to know they'd have to do something about how the OGL with interact with it -- comes to us with so many open issues.
Yeah, the same here. I start to think that some part of it may be due to directed effort to produce such an effect (though I cannot fathom by which parties - though I really don't think that the direct D&D team was related - Scott and Linae).
All of this could have been much better. It makes me sad, because I fear that 3rd party support for 4E will drop close to zero, where as Pathfinder will get a lot of support (which isn't bad, but a fragmentation of the D&D player base isn't exactly great, regardless how big the chunk is).
Yeah, the bait and switch with the OGL/SRD/GSL over a year was annoying. We released our product after two years of development on April 4th for crying out loud. We knew we were screwed, and after two months of impressive numbers, it fell off sharply with the release of 4ED. People are soaking up 4ED in numbers nearly unheard of. Sure, OGL has a large pool to play in...but could all of us reasonably fit in without crushing most of the swimmers...and there are a handful of 3PP companies that are mighty big sumo wrestlers wading around with their ham hands in that pool. The first to feel the flabby flesh against porcelain will be us smaller ones.
How WOTC handled 4.0ED is downright unforgivable, worse given the nonchalance and positive spin they throw on all their announcements. But its here...and we have to make do. Paizo and Green Ronin and a few others might have developed a large enough base to survive with OGL but many of us smaller ones may not be so lucky.
I do also fully predict that those from WOTC reading these posts knew very well how the GSL was going to be received. They knew very well and didn't care. There will be a proper FAQ that explains everything in time and by then, we'll receive some clarification that may help or hurt the industry further.
__________________ "Amethyst is an extremely vibrant new setting, presenting a campaign world that feels holistic in scope, even as the possibilities presented in this book barely seem to scratch the surface."
Shane O'Connor (Staff Reviewer, RPG Now)
If publishers don't use the license, the net effect is the same. If they do use it, there's a gain compared to a total lack of the GSL.
I take your point, and I'm not saying you're incorrect.. however, in your own words, that is a purely pragmatic outlook.
When dealing with people's feelings (and consumers are rife with those), sometimes you do have to take perception into account. This isn't just a case of the 3rd Party companies themselves, but those that looked to be able to buy products from them.
It comes down to some people didn't want to be disappointed like this. Sometimes it's easier to accept that there is no chance, rather than get one's hopes up and see them die, or be left unrealized.
An old boss of mine once said, "One should never be surprised in life, but it's alright to be disappointed."
__________________ Here's your first clue: I'm watching you!
*shrug* - only for one product line and the products. It's not like it's they're springing a trap on you. Furthermore, previously you had the choice between (for a single product/product line): OGL and non-publishing. Now you have the choice between: OGL, non-publishing, and GSL-exclusive publishing.
They are springing a trap on you; it's not just a single product/product line. 6.1 outlines that the same - or similar - content between two books can count as a conversion. So if even the tiniest bit of one of your 4E books is similar to an OGL book, that book and everything in its product line are now hit with the 6.1 restriction. That seems like springing a trap to me.
Quote:
Ah, you're coming from there - I could also say: The negative reaction to the GSL solidifies the OGL community more than ever, especially as Pathfinder, a viable alternative, is already there and can catch all people not going GSL (which are now aggravated due to the restrictive GSL and hence actively search an alternative!).
It does do that. I just think that the lack of a GSL altogether would have done that more, and without the fact that some publishers are going to get screwed at some point by choosing to adopt the GSL.
Is a trap in plain sight still a trap? Or is it a hazard?
__________________ Joseph Miller Privateer Press Wordsmith (Monsternomicon & Monsternomicon revised!) Mongoose Freelancer (EA: Illusionism & Familiars, SG to Derro)
Former ENnies Biz Manager (2004)
Designer and Writer of Nevermore campaign setting a True20 Worlds of Adventure contest winner and Ennies 2007 award nominee for Best Electronic Book and Best Free Product.
The World of Nevermore True20 campaign setting is now available in pdf or "dead tree" format.
Check out the new Nevermore campaign setting blog.
Stay tuned for more upcoming products...
Next time you're in Renton let's grab some coffee or drinks. I guarantee by the end of our conversation your opinion on us not caring will be different.
Next time you're in Renton let's grab some coffee or drinks. I guarantee by the end of our conversation your opinion on us not caring will be different.
Too bad that your caring couldn't be converted to something that wouldn't seem to have alienated just about every single 3rd party publisher.
Ah well, I guess I should be grateful that you have saved me a ton of money. Or maybe tomorrow things will look different. One can always hope.
__________________ 4e Draegor Campaign: 128 hours played.
Linear Mode
