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RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
Well, first of all one would need to find OGL "sources" for certain ideas and concepts, such as using power per encounter, static defenses instead of saves and so on. Once that was done, it would just be a question of applying the math.
__________________ Andreas Rönnqvist Dreamscarred Press
New publishing with a focus on Psionics
Well, first of all one would need to find OGL "sources" for certain ideas and concepts, such as using power per encounter, static defenses instead of saves and so on. Once that was done, it would just be a question of applying the math.
Static defenses (somewhat similar to what's in 4e) appeared in Unearthed Arcana, listed as OGC. (Though in there I think it was 11 + your current save bonus to arrive at your defense score)
Static defenses (somewhat similar to what's in 4e) appeared in Unearthed Arcana, listed as OGC. (Though in there I think it was 11 + your current save bonus to arrive at your defense score)
That'd be "Players roll all the dice", in which the monsters got static saves and the players got dynamic AC. I quite liked it in my campaign, and intend to use it again.
That'd be "Players roll all the dice", in which the monsters got static saves and the players got dynamic AC. I quite liked it in my campaign, and intend to use it again.
You would be surprised how much of 4e is taken out of UA and is OGC.
Barbarians had abilities that lasted until the end of the encounter. I'd propose not to simply steal the 4e at-will/encounter/daily dynamic, though. Come up with something a wee bit different that can still use the structure of existing powers.
My recommendation? Label powers as basic, advanced, and heroic.
You can use basic powers as a standard action.
You can only use one advanced power per encounter.
You can only use one heroic power per day.
As you gain levels, you learn more powers of the different types, and you gain the ability to use more advanced powers per encounter and more heroic powers per day. Unlike 4e, I wouldn't limit a high-level character to only using each daily power once per day; rather, give a limit to how many such powers you can use each day, but let the person use the same power multiple times if he wants.
That is eminently derivable from wizard spellcasting.
Finally, I'd add some mechanic that lets you recharge your advanced and heroic slots. Make it work sort of like 'super move' meters in fighting games, or limit breaks. If you reach a certain threshold in the course of a single encounter, you get caught up in the action and are able to pull off more acts of derring-do.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Post Haste?
Barbarians had abilities that lasted until the end of the encounter. I'd propose not to simply steal the 4e at-will/encounter/daily dynamic, though. Come up with something a wee bit different that can still use the structure of existing powers.
My recommendation? Label powers as basic, advanced, and heroic.
You can use basic powers as a standard action.
You can only use one advanced power per encounter.
You can only use one heroic power per day.
As you gain levels, you learn more powers of the different types, and you gain the ability to use more advanced powers per encounter and more heroic powers per day. Unlike 4e, I wouldn't limit a high-level character to only using each daily power once per day; rather, give a limit to how many such powers you can use each day, but let the person use the same power multiple times if he wants.
That is eminently derivable from wizard spellcasting.
Finally, I'd add some mechanic that lets you recharge your advanced and heroic slots. Make it work sort of like 'super move' meters in fighting games, or limit breaks. If you reach a certain threshold in the course of a single encounter, you get caught up in the action and are able to pull off more acts of derring-do.
My recommendation? Label powers as basic, advanced, and heroic.
You can use basic powers as a standard action.
You can only use one advanced power per encounter.
You can only use one heroic power per day.
As you gain levels, you learn more powers of the different types, and you gain the ability to use more advanced powers per encounter and more heroic powers per day. Unlike 4e, I wouldn't limit a high-level character to only using each daily power once per day; rather, give a limit to how many such powers you can use each day, but let the person use the same power multiple times if he wants.
That is eminently derivable from wizard spellcasting.
Finally, I'd add some mechanic that lets you recharge your advanced and heroic slots. Make it work sort of like 'super move' meters in fighting games, or limit breaks. If you reach a certain threshold in the course of a single encounter, you get caught up in the action and are able to pull off more acts of derring-do.
Mechanics like this exist in dozens of computer games. Lets couch it in Warcraft and Diablo terms: each class has a skill tree. Powers have a "mana" cost and a cooldown period.
It's all doable in UA Terms: combine spell points and recharge magic and generalize for all classes. Spell points become maneuver points, although "Maneuver points" are very hard to justify in In-game terms, any kind of verisimilitude is going to suffer.
Recharge magic can have a consitent metaphysics, mana points only to a lesser extend.
***
If you stay with save bonuses, even with "players amke all the rolls", you can have a more consistent saves mechanics than "lucky roll ends effect".
__________________ Today one asks how much culture, solidarity, humanity and ecology we can afford economically,
while the real question is: what economical system can we afford ecologically, socially, and culturally. - Jakob von Uexeküll
If 3E was the Firefox Edition of D&D, 4E is the Mircosoft Edition.
Fantasy Concepts uses a lot of the Saga-esque mechanics derived from OGC. Instead of daily powers, FC has powers that are activated by Action Points. In terms of creating an OGL 4E, you could use many of the same sources that Fantasy Concepts used, and it would not be hard at all to derive a 4E-esque OGL game.
However, the question remains, as always: while you can do it, why would you want to? Is it just for the challenge? Or do you have other plans in mind?
I think the reason why Flynn is to get around the GLS by WoTC. Make a similar 4E game using the OGL.
I imagine that was the motivation, but I think that path might lead to trouble in the future. That's only my opinion, of course, but I would suggest people consider carefully before doing anything like this for profit.
I imagine that was the motivation, but I think that path might lead to trouble in the future. That's only my opinion, of course, but I would suggest people consider carefully before doing anything like this for profit.
Not to worry. The plan outlined above is self-defeating. If I flip through a book labeled "For use with the 4th edition of the most popular FRPG" and find all this terminology that doesn't match the standard terms in D&D 4e, will I think it is compatible with D&D? Some might. Others won't.
The real trick is finding OGC sources for the real 4e terms and that can only get you 80-90% of the way there. It's bad enough that you could not use the block format used by WotC (that is certainly trade dress they would defend). But once you start modifying or substituting terms, you have problems.
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
Well, theoretically, one could publish these "4E OGL" rules for free, but they would serve as eminent basis for writing 4E support material under the OGL.
__________________ Andreas Rönnqvist Dreamscarred Press
New publishing with a focus on Psionics
Not to worry. The plan outlined above is self-defeating. If I flip through a book labeled "For use with the 4th edition of the most popular FRPG" and find all this terminology that doesn't match the standard terms in D&D 4e, will I think it is compatible with D&D? Some might. Others won't.
The real trick is finding OGC sources for the real 4e terms and that can only get you 80-90% of the way there. It's bad enough that you could not use the block format used by WotC (that is certainly trade dress they would defend). But once you start modifying or substituting terms, you have problems.
i dont think a 4e srd ogl would need to come from only other ogl games. The other 20 to 10 percent are most likely going to be game mechanics. as long as you don't copy the text directly but state rules in your own words... maybe i missed the boat. am i wrong?
__________________ -Devin
is 4e cool, yes. but ask me that again when i can play a druid ;p
Not to worry. The plan outlined above is self-defeating. If I flip through a book labeled "For use with the 4th edition of the most popular FRPG" and find all this terminology that doesn't match the standard terms in D&D 4e, will I think it is compatible with D&D? Some might. Others won't.
The real trick is finding OGC sources for the real 4e terms and that can only get you 80-90% of the way there. It's bad enough that you could not use the block format used by WotC (that is certainly trade dress they would defend). But once you start modifying or substituting terms, you have problems.
For most current gamers, "4E" is well-known enough for most people so there wouldn't even need to be a large label such as the above. However, some things can be couched in the same or similar terms without inferring a breach of trade dress and I think that you can come 95% there with OGL and some innovative thinking.
__________________ Andreas Rönnqvist Dreamscarred Press
New publishing with a focus on Psionics
I imagine that was the motivation, but I think that path might lead to trouble in the future. That's only my opinion, of course, but I would suggest people consider carefully before doing anything like this for profit.
With Regards,
Flynn
The OGL 4E should of course remain free and non-profit.
But if somebody manages to write this in, say, a months time, it might create a industry standard for all those companies that would love to get on the 4E bandwagon if the GSL wasn't either scaring them away in general or keeping them away because their idea is too flexible for Wizards' liking.
Like most previous products, the best focus for such a project would be to target people who already have the 4E core books, and thus not have to explain the obvious. The goal isn't to create a game that competes with 4E, after all; it's to provide a platform for supplements that wish to cater to the 4E crowd without putting all eggs in the same GSL basket, and open up for 4E-ish games that use what they like about D&D but replace what they don't like... :-)
The OGL 4E should of course remain free and non-profit. The goal isn't to create a game that competes with 4E, after all; it's to provide a platform for supplements that wish to cater to the 4E crowd without putting all eggs in the same GSL basket, and open up for 4E-ish games that use what they like about D&D but replace what they don't like... :-)
Exactly, and with something like this in place, multiple publishers could go the route of creating 4E compatible material, while keeping with the OGL.
__________________ Andreas Rönnqvist Dreamscarred Press
New publishing with a focus on Psionics
For most current gamers, "4E" is well-known enough for most people so there wouldn't even need to be a large label such as the above. However, some things can be couched in the same or similar terms without inferring a breach of trade dress and I think that you can come 95% there with OGL and some innovative thinking.
Find me "shift", "pull", "push" and "slide" in sufficient OGC that I can say "Success: weapon damage and slide 2" without falling back on "... and you may move the target up to 10 feet in any direction. Such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity". (That would be "Hit: 1[W] and slide 2" in WotC terms.)
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
Linear Mode
