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I just wrote a treasure generator in Javascript using the treasure tables out of the 3.5E Magic Item Compendium. I'm wondering if it's OK to post a link to it on the forums here, since the MIC tables are not part of the SRD.
The output of the generator consists of a simple table of item names, gold values and page reference numbers. I'm unsure as to whether this qualifies as fair use or not. I think it does, but I'd appreciate any helpful comments.
Fair use arguments:
Factor 1, Purpose and Character: Noncommercial use.
Factor 3, Substantiality: Only the names and gold values of the items are used.
Factor 4, Market Effect: The generator is fairly useless without the books in question, so should not harm their commercial value. In fact, it may enhance their value by making them more useful to the consumer. I am aware of no official WOTC treasure generator program that this would compete with.
Last edited by Mooninaut; 8th February 2009 at 04:14 AM..
Not sure if (as a non-lawyer) my comments will be that helpful, but:
I think that 'Substantiality' might be viewable as not simply volume of text, but nature ...call it 'weight' of the text used - meaning, are the few words you use from the book very important words, like names of characters?
Not familiar with the MIC (then why am I replying again?!?), but are there item names which contain IP that WOTC might wish/need to protect...is it Armlet of Wonder, or Grugg's Armlet of Wunders?
Aside from that it would SEEM (again IANAL) that a Fair Use argument could be made.
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It's probably better to consider whether WotC could make a product using the same information. Would your program detract from the market for the WotC product? Or, from the goodwill that WotC would engender from releasing their own (free) product that does the same? Would the program detract from the value of embedding the same function into the online content?
It's almost definitely not fair use, as you are not simply referencing the table but using it. The question is whether the table itself is copyrightable or if only a particular presentation is. you are probably within your rights, IMO, but WotC might find it prudent to take legal action against you because it's not a very clear thing.
It's almost definitely not fair use, as you are not simply referencing the table but using it.
If he were only referencing it, he wouldn't need to worry about fair use... I'm pretty sure the legal concept of fair use only has relevance in cases where you would otherwise be infringing upon copyright.
Obviously we're not lawyers here, but there just doesn't seem to be any reason at all for WotC to sue you in the first place. Even in the dark TSR days they'd request fan made material to be removed before resorting to lawsuits.
I'll have to disagree. (But, there may be specific issues because the information is presented in tables.)
Factor 1: Character of work: Non-commercial, but non-personal.
The work seems to be non-commercial, but also non-personal (if made available across the web). None of the extra factors (e.g., parody) are present to tilt the usage in favor of fair use. This seems to be a substitutive work, rather than a transformative one.
Factor 2: Nature of work: Creative
The elements of the table are imaginative items. The table itself, I don't know. The arrangement of items in tables seems to be a creative act (in opposition to an alphabetical listing). However, questions about tabular data may have specific precedents that would provide exact answers, at least as far as fair use of tables.
Factor 3: How much of the work will be used: More than a small amount.
Here I'd have to say "more than a small amount", especially if the program provides the entirety of the treasure tables as published.
Factor 4: Effect of widespread use: Competing
In this case, I would have to put the answer as "Competes with (takes away sales from) the original". I look to the character generator as an example, and can imagine a similar treasure generator being added to the online content.
If he were only referencing it, he wouldn't need to worry about fair use... I'm pretty sure the legal concept of fair use only has relevance in cases where you would otherwise be infringing upon copyright.
Obviously we're not lawyers here, but there just doesn't seem to be any reason at all for WotC to sue you in the first place. Even in the dark TSR days they'd request fan made material to be removed before resorting to lawsuits.
"What is the character of the use?"
Useful reference works are generally protected; however, the Potter-verse unofficial encyclopedia ran afoul for basically, (in the eyes of the judge), reproducing Rowling's creative work.
Creating your own treasure table, even with the same treasure names? I'd say that's probably safe. Reproducing an existing table, even in a somewhat transformed form? Probably legal, but I would not risk it.
I feel like people are using the wrong calculus here.
If you put up a hobby product that was clearly fair use, and WotC asked you to take it down or they'd sue, would you really press the issue in court?
Ultimately the issue, as a hobbyist, isn't whether it's fair use or not, but whether WotC would simply sue you without first asking you to remove it. Does anyone know of a single case where that's happened?
I think that the descriptions of the items make up the bulk of both the commercial value and creative value of the book, not the random tables. Indeed, I created the generator to be used with the book, not to replace it. If I had wanted to replace the book, I would have included the full description of each item.
Thanks for all the feedback! Given everything I've read, the existence of another treasure generator that I just found, and the fact that sites like Crystal Keep remain online, I'm going to post the link to my generator.
Last edited by Mooninaut; 5th February 2009 at 01:14 PM..
Thanks for all the feedback! Given everything I've read, the existence of another treasure generator that I just found, and the fact that sites like Crystal Keep remain online, I'm going to post the link to my generator.
Wizard's placement of content "for free" does not remove the copyright from those items.
Crystal keep, notably, does not include the full text of the feats. There is a indexed list of feats, and a brief summary, which seems to make the content transformative.
Now, whether WotC cares about folks using their tables to create online generators, I don't know. My sense is that they don't care, since the overall usage will likely be low.
But, let me ask, if Paizo put up an online Treasure Table function that used the treasure tables from the Magic Item Compendium, do you think that that would be alright?
Wizard's placement of content "for free" does not remove the copyright from those items.
But it does matter for whether something is fair use or not...
Quote:
Crystal keep, notably, does not include the full text of the feats. There is a indexed list of feats, and a brief summary, which seems to make the content transformative.
Now, whether WotC cares about folks using their tables to create online generators, I don't know. My sense is that they don't care, since the overall usage will likely be low.
I don't know why you keep talking as if the OP had photocopied the tables and was redistributing them. What they did was exactly what the crystal keep does, except there isn't even a summary of what items do.
But it does matter for whether something is fair use or not...
I don't know why you keep talking as if the OP had photocopied the tables and was redistributing them. What they did was exactly what the crystal keep does, except there isn't even a summary of what items do.
The posted material is a two page sample of the entire work, and (IMO) is clearly presented as a preview of the entire work. I don't see how it helps the argument that the OP's usage is fair use.
I don't know the details of the program that the OP is presenting. If it is an index of all of the magic items, then it would be transformative, and (IMO) fair use. But, if it reproduces most or all of the tables, and reproduces the selections in the tables exactly, that seems to me to be a direct substitution, and not a fair use. My presumption is that the arrangement of the items into tables for treasure generation involves some creativity, and the particular selection would be copyrightable, and that any substantial reproduction of the selection would not be fair use. On the other hand, a different set of tables, made up by the OP, is (by my reading of the Harry Potter link, presented earlier in this thread) fair use. (Even more ... such a set of tables would be a whole new product, and the fair use question would not appear.)
Now, practically, is it a problem? I don't think so. But as well, I'm in no position to give that advice with any weight.
There's a link to his treasure generator up a few posts. Why don't you take a look at it?
That is a nice app.
A confusion: I thought that this was about using the tables from the 4E books (but I don't think that makes a difference).
I have to say that I personally (with absolutely no legal justification) think that WotC abandoned 3.5E (by failing to provide ongoing support for it) so I am wholly on-board with fan created utilities. WotC will never provide them, and I consider their eventual implementation to be a necessary part of the product that WotC ought to be delivering to me as a (one time) loyal customer.
But that is a very tilted view, and motivated a lot by unhappiness, so you need to take it with a grain of salt.
(But, I'm also wondering if there is some underlying legal justfication that is real. )
Regardless, I'm not meaning to be a snit about it ... I am mostly trying to say that the fair use question is (IMO) not so clear-cut, and that I personally find arguments in both directions.
I started the thread thinking "what the hey, he should just use the tables''. After some consideration my personal opinion has changed completely. There are all sorts of great OGL sources that would benefit from a random generator - why use material you might not be welcome to. If you use a piece just make it easy to find out where it came from. Every player I've ever known would follow the link to see what they might have received or what they're missing.
Lots of good material out there does not belong to WOTC and we should showcase it more.
It's not simply that you might anger a certain gaming company by referencing their stuff it is more that you have not been made welcome to support the game with your endeavor. Use the OGL stuff because it will eventually be around longer and have more use.
Sigurd.
Players should strive to understand licenses and seek the most liberal ones. DM's make games - companies only make books.
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Last edited by Sigurd; 7th February 2009 at 01:37 AM..
Actually, that is evidence in the opposite direct direction. The fact that they would consider it worthwhile enough to their customers to post it on their website suggests it has considerable value as free web content.
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