RPG Legalities: OGF/4eGSL/d20STLDiscussions about the Open Gaming Movement, the Open Gaming License, along with WotC's GSL. This is the new home of the OGF-L and d20-L listserver discussions.
As has been mentioned in other Threads, the GSL still hinders publishers in regards to publishing monster nand NPC statblocks.
As I understand it (And Scott Rouse has said as much in other threads on the GSL forums at the WOTC boards), while you can't reprint powers and monster statistic/abilities verbatim, you CAN print the applied mathematical values.
In cases where the power is really needed to be seen in it's entirety, you'll need to refer to the appropriate book.
Now, I'm posting a statblock I believe is going to pass muster just fine, and I'd like to see some opinions from other folks, so we all can get a better handle on how to make our products more user-friendly in this regard.
So, let's start a discussion in hopes of becoming more clear on what we can and cannot do.
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Talfordinate Wicking, Thunder Priest of Velun Level 16 Controller (Leader) Medium Humanoid (Human) XP 1,400 Initiative +8 Senses: Perception +11 Aura of the Sky God Aura 5; all enemies in the aura gain vulnerable 5
thunder. HP 131; Bloodied 66 AC 28; Fortitude 28, Reflex 28, Will 33 Resist 10 thunder Speed 6 Action Points 1
m Mace (standard; at-will) +23 vs. AC; 1d8 + 6 r Holy Thunder (standard; at-will) * Thunder
Range 5; +27 vs. Reflex; 1d6 + 12 thunder damage and the target is pushed 5 squares. R Plague of Doom (standard; encounter) Range 10; +27 vs. Fortitude; 3d8 + 12 damage; (Level 13 Cleric Encounter Attack Prayer; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook); -3
R Thunderbreak (standard; encounter) * Thunder
Range 10; +27 vs. Will; 2d8 + 12 thunder damage, and the target is
deafened and dazed until the end of Wicking's next turn.
A Purifying Lightning (standard; daily) * Lightning
Area burst 2 within 10; +27 vs. Reflex; 3d10 + 12 lightning damage and
ongoing 10 lightning (save ends)(See the D&D 4E Player's Handbook.).
A Thunder Cloud (standard; daily) * Thunder
Area burst 2 within 10; +27 vs. Reflex; 2d10 + 12 thunder damage and
ongoing 5 thunder (save ends); Miss: half damage.
Divine Fortune (free; encounter)
(Cleric Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook)
C Healing Word (minor; twice per encounter)
Close Burst 10; (Cleric Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player's
Handbook); +4d6
C Mass Cure Light Wounds (standard; daily)
Close Burst 5; (Level 10 Cleric Utility Prayer; see the D&D 4E
Player's Handbook); +3
M Cure Serious Wounds (standard; daily)
Melee touch; (Level 6 Cleric Utility Prayer; see the D&D 4E Player's
Handbook)
Alignment Good
Skills Religion +15, Insight +18, Diplomacy +16, History +15
Str 14 (+10) Dex 11 (+8) Wis 21 (+13)
Con 14 (+10) Int 14 (+10) Cha 16 (+11)
Equipment robe of thunderbolts +4, symbol of the storm +6
The only thing that might be a little marginal is the Mace entry; although I doubt anyone would complain that you're redefining the Mace, I prefer to qualify things a bit more in my own works, by calling it a 'Mace of Velun' or 'Thundersmasher' or some darn thing.
Forked from: [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?postid=4692117] Divine Fortune (free; encounter)
(Cleric Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook)
I presume that "them's the rules, sonny" is the answer, but are page numbers not allowed in the references? I'd find the lack of a page number terribly frustrating. (And I suppose that there is no way to create a web-enabled document and to link it to the DDI, even with the link not working if the user does not have paid access?)
Also, are you allowed to "refactor" a stat block? E.g., put in a block such as:
Talfordinate Wicking, Thunder Priest of Velun
Base stats ... (adjust per level guidelines)
At level X, increase Cha by an additional +2
At level X+1, increase HP by an additional +20
Standard Abilities ... (adjust per level guidelines)
m Mace (standard; at-will) +10+STR+1/2Level vs. AC; 1d8 + BASE_STR
R Thunderbreak (standard; encounter) * Thunder
At level X add:
A Purifying Lightning (standard; daily) * Lightning
A Thunder Cloud (standard; daily) * Thunder
At level X+1 remove "Purifying Lighting" and add:
Divine Fortune (free; encounter)
I'm making that all up just to show for example ... I find the "list of final instances" format to be terribly unrevealing and very inefficient. I wouldn't mind seeing both, but having to figure out the "core" monster and the adjustments that are not a part of the level adjustment is a huge pain.
The only thing that might be a little marginal is the Mace entry; although I doubt anyone would complain that you're redefining the Mace, I prefer to qualify things a bit more in my own works, by calling it a 'Mace of Velun' or 'Thundersmasher' or some darn thing.
As has been mentioned in other Threads, the GSL still hinders publishers in regards to publishing monster and NPC statblocks.
As I understand it, while you can't reprint powers and monster statistic/abilities verbatim, you CAN print the applied mathematical values.
In cases where the power is really needed to be seen in it's entirety, you'll need to refer to the appropriate book.
Now, I'm posting a statblock I believe is going to pass muster just fine, and I'd like to see some opinions from other folks, so we all can get a better handle on how to make our products more user-friendly in this regard.
So, let's start a discussion in hopes of becoming more clear on what we can and cannot do.
Sorry but could you begin from the beginning.
If I throw a casual glance on your example the only thing I see is a monster/NPC statblock.
Which supposedly is forbidden?
Or are you simply saying if you create a new monster/NPC that doesn't reference anything from the PHB you're fine?
That is, if you make sure you're not using a human or dwarf but a "Lowlander" or "Mountaindweller" which aren't using any named powers from the PHB or MM.
But that's not very interesting for most people is it?
I would have thought the majority of prospective licensees are wondering how to present monsters/NPCs that are dwarfs and goblins, only not specifically the Dwarf Bolter or the Goblin Cutter.
For various reasons (variety, different level requirements or simply because you're designing a cool new Solo)...
I might be daft, but perhaps if you gave a short overview of why and how your statblock is legit, or at least close to legit.... thanks!
This is from the SRD, which I hope will clear up things:
For example, you may not reprint the statistics of a kobold wyrmpriest or the lich template in a Licensed Product, nor may you define these 4E References. You may, however, print a kobold wyrmpriest lich that you create and that is relevant to your Licensed Product.
This is why I think the GSL -> SRD is still a bad idea. In order to put meaningful Stat Blocks in my product I have to make an almost creature or reference the generics in the monster manual. I am defiantly buying Goodman's next module to see how they handle it. How does copying the monster stat block as a convenience to my customer diminish your IP ?
What are they looking for third partyies to publish? The OGL assumed adventures and the GSL seems to preclude it. Strictly speaking the RPGA modules break the GSL, and seem to violate another piece of their IP with the mapper required maps. The adventures are basically subcontracted WotC adventures, However if they are a model of what a professional adventure should model cant do it.
If I throw a casual glance on your example the only thing I see is a monster/NPC statblock.
Which supposedly is forbidden?
Or are you simply saying if you create a new monster/NPC that doesn't reference anything from the PHB you're fine?
That is, if you make sure you're not using a human or dwarf but a "Lowlander" or "Mountaindweller" which aren't using any named powers from the PHB or MM.
But that's not very interesting for most people is it?
I would have thought the majority of prospective licensees are wondering how to present monsters/NPCs that are dwarfs and goblins, only not specifically the Dwarf Bolter or the Goblin Cutter.
For various reasons (variety, different level requirements or simply because you're designing a cool new Solo)...
I might be daft, but perhaps if you gave a short overview of why and how your statblock is legit, or at least close to legit.... thanks!
Sorry if I was unclear.
The potential problem areas are as follows:
m Mace (standard; at-will) +23 vs. AC; 1d8 + 6
r Holy Thunder (standard; at-will) * Thunder
Range 5; +27 vs. Reflex; 1d6 + 12 thunder damage and the target is pushed 5 squares.
R Plague of Doom (standard; encounter) Range 10; +27 vs. Fortitude; 3d8 + 12 damage; (Level 13 Cleric Encounter Attack Prayer; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook); -3
R Thunderbreak (standard; encounter) * Thunder
Range 10; +27 vs. Will; 2d8 + 12 thunder damage, and the target is
deafened and dazed until the end of Wicking's next turn.
A Purifying Lightning (standard; daily) * Lightning
Area burst 2 within 10; +27 vs. Reflex; 3d10 + 12 lightning damage and
ongoing 10 lightning (save ends)(See the D&D 4E Player's Handbook.).
A Thunder Cloud (standard; daily) * Thunder
Area burst 2 within 10; +27 vs. Reflex; 2d10 + 12 thunder damage and
ongoing 5 thunder (save ends); Miss: half damage.
Divine Fortune (free; encounter)
(Cleric Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook)
C Healing Word (minor; twice per encounter)
Close Burst 10; (Cleric Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player's
Handbook); +4d6
C Mass Cure Light Wounds (standard; daily)
Close Burst 5; (Level 10 Cleric Utility Prayer; see the D&D 4E
Player's Handbook); +3
M Cure Serious Wounds (standard; daily)
Melee touch; (Level 6 Cleric Utility Prayer; see the D&D 4E Player's
Handbook)
I believe the statblock works, because it properly references the PHB where necessary, BUT there are entries which DON"T reference the PHB. Those might be issues, but I don't think they are, given what Scott Rouse said in the link I posted.
What bugs me, is that it's less than optimal. Constantly having to refer to a core book in a statblock entry makes things harder on a GM at the gaming table, not easier.
So, I'm trying to see if there are better ways to deal with this situation.
Looking more closely, I now see that you write out some powers in full and only references others. But I still don't see your point.
I don't have my books here, so is the difference that Thunderbreak and Thundercloud (which you provide in full) are new original powers and Divine Fortune and Cure Serious Wounds (where you don't) existing PHB powers?
Or is that you have a theory about what elements of a power you can reproduce and what elements you can't? If so, what elements are those?
Sorry if I'm dense, but I'd appreciate it if you'd explain your idea more in full for us non-GSL-experts.
This is from the SRD, which I hope will clear up things:
For example, you may not reprint the statistics of a kobold wyrmpriest or the lich template in a Licensed Product, nor may you define these 4E References. You may, however, print a kobold wyrmpriest lich that you create and that is relevant to your Licensed Product.
Thanks. This actually is easy and clear.
So you can't reproduce the stats for a Goblin Cutter (because if you could, nothing would prevent you from repackaging the entire Monster Manual) - okay.
But you could create for instance a "Goblin Wirer", which would be a new entry in the list of goblin monsters. This Goblin Wirer could even be a minion of the same level as the existing Cutter, only perhaps with a different set of ability scores and/or a different weapon. Yes?
Now, most monsters are presented in the MM as a small set of specific monsters. There isn't a generic "Dwarf" for instance, but there is a set of dwarf monsters (namely two: the Dwarf Hammerer and the Dwarf Bolter). So in an adventure which features dwarfs, I don't see not being able to use* these two guys as a terribly restrictive rule, as you can create new iterations to your hearts desire (Dwarf Axeguard, Dwarf Matron, Dwarf Whatever).
*) I know you can use them, you can only not give full stats for them. But I completely understand this is effectively a ban on using them, especially when the alternative is so much easier on the reader/DM.
My question is instead for those monsters that don't come as a set of prepackaged monsters.
My first thought went to the Red Dragon, but then I realized it does come as a set (Young, Adult, etc). So you'll simply create a "Red Dragon Terror" or a "Skirmishing Red Young" with appropriate stats and you're fine.
Instead, let's take the Balhannoth as the example (perhaps the only monster in the entire Manual which have only the one "straight" entry?). Whatever trick you're trying to pull here ("Balhannoth Guard", "Sneaky Balhannoth" etc) you'll be redefining the given entry right?
What I'm saying here is that "Goblin Cutter" is of the form XY where you have two parts. A "Goblin Wirer", say, would be XZ which isn't redefining XY in any way. For the Balhannoth, the story is different because they give X and you can't create XZ or XS without that being a redefinition of (extension really) of the concept X.
So while you can do a "Goblin Guard" you can't do a "Balhannoth Guard" (or "Human Guard" for that matter). You'll have to rename it or reference it in general terms: "Xyzzy Guard" or "Tentacle Monster Worm Guard". Right?
The way I understand the lincese is that you could have a Balhannoth Guard, I don't think the multipart name has anything to do with it. As long as I can reference the term Balhannoth I think I could derive from it. What you can't do is copy wholesale the text entries or stat blocks without changing them a bit. You'd have to have yoru own flavor text etc. What you can't do is take balhannoth and give it say different powers or rewrite it's flavor text, etc.
Take Fireball for instance. If I didn't rename or change it I can only reference the name in my works and tell ppl where the reference came from. But if I created it as Firesphere (assuming firesphere isn't in the GSL SRD) give it my own flavor text and change the damage slightly for good measure and anyother changes I might want to make I can reprint that completely verbatium in any product that I want that I make for 4e.
Keep in mind I'm still analyzing it and I'm not a lawyer.
Gil
__________________ "If life gives you lemons go find someone with vodka and make a party!" --Antilles
As I understand it (And Scott Rouse has said as much in other threads on the GSL forums at the WOTC boards), while you can't reprint powers and monster statistic/abilities verbatim, you CAN print the applied mathematical values.
You might want to start at what the GSL seems be trying to channel you into doing -- either, simply naming a creating and providing a reference, for example, "The room has two Goblin Cutters (see the Monster Manual), both marked on the reference map with a G" -- or, when you truly have a new monster variation, supplying the statistics for that, while following the regimen provided by the GSL. (My read is that the instructions are very specific.)
If you take the existing Goblin Cutter and simply reskin it for the purpose of being able to provide the entire statistics, I think you will find yourself swimming upstream against the GSL. (If you did that too blatently, would you be in violation?)
You might want to start at what the GSL seems be trying to channel you into doing -- either, simply naming a creating and providing a reference, for example, "The room has two Goblin Cutters (see the Monster Manual), both marked on the reference map with a G" -- or, when you truly have a new monster variation, supplying the statistics for that, while following the regimen provided by the GSL. (My read is that the instructions are very specific.)
If you take the existing Goblin Cutter and simply reskin it for the purpose of being able to provide the entire statistics, I think you will find yourself swimming upstream against the GSL. (If you did that too blatently, would you be in violation?)
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, that seems like the easiest way to go, but the problem, is that products that don't have full entries (like, say, an adventure) make it more difficult on the DM, not easier.
I understand that any adventure requires prep work on the part of the DM, but looking up important statistics for an NPC or monster can be a pain.
Instead, let's take the Balhannoth as the example (perhaps the only monster in the entire Manual which have only the one "straight" entry?). Whatever trick you're trying to pull here ("Balhannoth Guard", "Sneaky Balhannoth" etc) you'll be redefining the given entry right?
Am I understanding this correctly?
I think you could make a "Sneaky Balhannoth," because the original entry is Balhannoth. You aren't redefining balhannoth. you're creating what amounts to a new creature.
Looking more closely, I now see that you write out some powers in full and only references others. But I still don't see your point.
I don't have my books here, so is the difference that Thunderbreak and Thundercloud (which you provide in full) are new original powers and Divine Fortune and Cure Serious Wounds (where you don't) existing PHB powers?
Or is that you have a theory about what elements of a power you can reproduce and what elements you can't? If so, what elements are those?
Sorry if I'm dense, but I'd appreciate it if you'd explain your idea more in full for us non-GSL-experts.
Yes, I'm wanting to reproduce enough elements of a power so as to make it useable, but not break the GSL agreement.
As far as I can tell. I can reproduce the math parts like such:
m Mace (standard; at-will) +23 vs. AC; 1d8 + 6
Other entries, like the Plague of Doom Power are reprinted to a certain point, and then the rest of the power is referenced:
R Plague of Doom (standard; encounter) Range 10; +27 vs. Fortitude; 3d8 + 12 damage; (Level 13 Cleric Encounter Attack Prayer; see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook); -3
The reason for doing this, is to provide GMs with, at the very least, the applied mathmateical values ( saves, damage, etc) but not reprint everything about the power.
This way, the GM still has to refer to the Players handbook to find out exactly how Plague of Doom works, but he doesn't have to crunch the numbers. We've done that part for him.
To be clear. I don't have any problems creating new monsters. I'm only worried about NPCs that are existing races, like a dragonborn, or a human, elf, etc.
But none of it matters now.
I'm going to produce my NPC blocks like this and hope people don't hate me for it. This format is less than optimal. It doesn't help to clarify specifics of a power, but it's legal:
Blind Jones Level 8 Soldier Medium Humanoid (Human) XP 350 Initiative +5 Senses Perception +4 HP 73; Bloodied 36 AC 24; Fortitude 23, Reflex 20, Will 19 Speed 6
Alignment Lawful Skills Athletics +12, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +10 Str 17 (+7) Dex 12 (+5) Wis 10 (+4) Con 16 (+7) Int 14 (+6) Cha 13 (+5)
Equipment: scale armor, greataxe + 2
Suggested Powers:
We suggest you use the following Fighter Exploits and Class Features for Blind Jones:
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) +13 vs. AC; 1d12 + 6 damage
m Sure Strike (Fighter Attack Exploit; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook)
M Reckless Strike (Fighter Attack Exploit; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook)
M Rain of Steel (Level 5 Fighter Attack Exploit; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook); 1d12
Unbreakable (Fighter Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook)
Combat Challenge (Fighter Class Feature; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook)
My opinion on such things is that one is better off building custom powers and abilities for non-PC entities anyway, even if the GSL didn't encourage it quite so strongly.
I might make a slight exception for artifacts that grant class powers, but that's about the only one that comes to mind.
My opinion on such things is that one is better off building custom powers and abilities for non-PC entities anyway, even if the GSL didn't encourage it quite so strongly.
I might make a slight exception for artifacts that grant class powers, but that's about the only one that comes to mind.
Cheers,
Roger
I tend to agree... When I first saw the restriction I thought it was kind of too much. But once I started playing 4e, I found the monsters in the MM and such almost feel more like examples, rather then the base.
Even the official adventures and dungeon adventures tend to change the powers and such to suit the needs of the particular monster/npc.
I admit there are certain situations where this restriction will be a PiTA, but overall less so then I first thought.
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