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  1. Replies
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    Yup. Totally agree. There are plenty of rules...

    Yup. Totally agree. There are plenty of rules in 5e that allow the players to legally cheat to mitigate outcomes. I believe that would be the entire point of the original article. That cheating...
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    When you change the result of a die, what rule...

    When you change the result of a die, what rule are you following?

    And, even if you want to point to "rulings not rules" or some other vaguely defined term, it's cheating, even if the rules...
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    I have to admit, I use the 5e morale rules and I...

    I have to admit, I use the 5e morale rules and I find they work great. I'm probably not a real stickler for the details of the rules, but, typically I start rolling when it's obvious that the...
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    And, if you or I were sitting at that table back...

    And, if you or I were sitting at that table back in the 70's, you'd have a point. Unfortunately, I doubt that either of us were there. So, what's your point? We're now going to include game...
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    Having replaced more than a few DM's at groups,...

    Having replaced more than a few DM's at groups, I'd say that this is not true. DM's are pretty replaceable. Granted, "a" player is pretty easily replaceable. But, players? Not really. I've seen...
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    Therein lies the disagreement. Simply writing it...

    Therein lies the disagreement. Simply writing it into the rules that you can cheat doesn't suddenly make it not cheating. It's that you've changed the rules to make yourself feel better because,...
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    Well, that's the point of this disagreement isn't...

    Well, that's the point of this disagreement isn't it? If you are allowed to cheat, and you cheat, are you not still cheating? Permission doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It's...
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    I suppose it depends on the viewer really. A...

    I suppose it depends on the viewer really. A table that lets you declare hits, for example, isnít cheating by your definition since the table agrees. But they certainly arenít playing by the rules...
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    Given the plethora of healing available in 5e, I...

    Given the plethora of healing available in 5e, I donít think it would be unreasonable to think that combat evolves a bit and hacking downed targets becomes a lot more viable of a tactic.
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    This thread contains a poll. Iíd say that as far as kitbash stuff goes, either...

    Iíd say that as far as kitbash stuff goes, either will get the job done. Once you know the syntax that either program uses, itís likely about equal.
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    This thread contains a poll. I'm not explaining myself well enough. It's...

    I'm not explaining myself well enough.

    It's not that FG is a bad program. It isn't. It does what it says on the tin, by and large.

    But, for 130 dollars I expect a HELL of a lot more than what...
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    This thread contains a poll. Now, that is very true. The Fantasy Grounds...

    Now, that is very true. The Fantasy Grounds community rocks on toast. They really are fantastic.
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    This thread contains a poll. Sure, you can make it easier and organize things....

    Sure, you can make it easier and organize things. Totally agree.

    Doesn't change the point that each of those pictures take about five steps in order to use. As compared to drag and drop which...
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    This thread contains a poll. I went with the 130 dollars that you insisted on...

    I went with the 130 dollars that you insisted on quoting. For the sake of argument. It is about 300 dollars to run a 5e full featured game. But, fair enough, you do get a lot of bang for your buck...
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    This thread contains a poll. Like I said, for the price, fantasy grounds...

    Like I said, for the price, fantasy grounds should be a hell of a lot better than it is.

    To give an example, the number of steps required to add something as simple as a single image is a bad...
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    This thread contains a poll. I use Fantasy Grounds, but, I have to admit, I...

    I use Fantasy Grounds, but, I have to admit, I really have a love/hate relationship with it.

    Sure, as a DM, you get fantastic tools. Really great stuff for getting up and running.

    On the...
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    I think this, more than anything is why you...

    I think this, more than anything is why you rarely see groups hiring. And in my experience dms as well hate the idea. Too much paperwork.
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    Did a bit of a google search. Still not sure...

    Did a bit of a google search. Still not sure what the issue is. My google fu failed.
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    But, even of DM's, how many DM's are like me that...

    But, even of DM's, how many DM's are like me that buy the core books and maybe one book every two years? My "gotta catch'em all" days died in early 2e. Heck, WotC recognizes that most people aren't...
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    Why surprised? It's always been thus. The...

    Why surprised? It's always been thus. The number of gamers who buy books is a tiny, tiny minority of players.
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    Loads of emotion and personal stakes? Oh, noes,...

    Loads of emotion and personal stakes? Oh, noes, I have to get my multi-billion dollar company back because, if I don't, I'll only be the chosen one savior. Gee, yeah, totally see the stakes there. ...
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    But, I think that's what makes Jessica Jones and...

    But, I think that's what makes Jessica Jones and Daredevil much better shows. Sure, JJ is an alcoholic, but, it's never "let slide" in the show. It's destructive as all get out. Watching JJ...
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    Mustrum_Ridcully - you're spoiler tags don't...

    Mustrum_Ridcully - you're spoiler tags don't work.

    Just finished the series. The season finale was not what I was expecting, although, to be fair, it's foreshadowed quite a few times in earlier...
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    Let's be honest here. There are very, very few...

    Let's be honest here. There are very, very few hobbies out there as cheap to enjoy as roleplaying.
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    As I recall, don't you roll 5d6 drop 2 for...

    As I recall, don't you roll 5d6 drop 2 for chargen? I seen to recall that from another conversation.

    So, realistically, not really much of a chance of a low score and very good chances of high...
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    Sorry, I misspoke. Standard HP/level are a norm,...

    Sorry, I misspoke. Standard HP/level are a norm, not the norm. The other option is, of course, rolling.

    It's been so long since I actually rolled HP's, that I honestly forgot that some people...
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    Heck pcs having standard hps are the norm in 5e. ...

    Heck pcs having standard hps are the norm in 5e.

    And, Rand hps for monsters so I can fudge is a pretty weak argument from my POV.
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    As far as "keeping the numbers secret" goes, in...

    As far as "keeping the numbers secret" goes, in 5e, monster HP are standardized - well, that's been true since 3e. And, damage isn't random either - your monsters deal average damage. Granted, I...
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    Wait, what? I live in a polytheistic country -...

    Wait, what?

    I live in a polytheistic country - Japan. And, I'm going to tell you right now that there ARE standardized rituals, and uniforms for priests and standardized holy days in Shinto. I'm...
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    Well, that's fair. Then again, why am I playing...

    Well, that's fair. Then again, why am I playing a game I don't like? Hopefully the rules of the game I'm playing are cool to me, otherwise, why bother?

    As far as magicians go, I'm not expected...
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    I always interpreted "the DM change change the...

    I always interpreted "the DM change change the rules" as clear permission from the game makers to add or subtract or alter rules before play. IOW, kit bashing, altering classes, doing this or that...
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    What no Luke Cage love?

    Havenít finished the series yet but Iím liking it a lot more than the first season. Tighter story and better characters.

    Two thumbs up.
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    I'm not sure referencing "Rule 0" is very game...

    I'm not sure referencing "Rule 0" is very game specific. After all, Rule 0, even in just D&D, has changed pretty radically over the years. 1e told you that Rule 0 was a means to adjudicate actions...
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    SHHHH! Oh, god, you opened ALL THE WORMS at one...

    SHHHH! Oh, god, you opened ALL THE WORMS at one time!!! They're coming! RUN!!!


    ------

    hehe... ahem.

    But, I do think that this is one of the bigger issues here. 4e rubbed people's faces...
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    Heh, hit on a miss rules. Gotta love 'em. Shame...

    Heh, hit on a miss rules. Gotta love 'em. Shame that any time this idea gets brought up seriously, it'll get dogpiled on as a bad idea. :/
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    Sorry about that. I hit reply before I realized...

    Sorry about that. I hit reply before I realized just how far back upstream I was. My bad. But, an excellent answer.

    As far as adjusting HP? Nope. Not once the monster is encountered. Heh. ...
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    So, you announce die changes and fudging at the...

    So, you announce die changes and fudging at the table before you do it? You flat out tell your players, "Hey, I just changed the AC of the monster so you couldn't hit it this time to increase...
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    There is a significant range between "clerics...

    There is a significant range between "clerics never act like anything other than fighters with a spell list" and "clerics must have daily/hourly rituals which must be detailed out."

    I would just...
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    Itís not cheating if itís fun? Fun for who? And...

    Itís not cheating if itís fun? Fun for who? And how do we measure that? Since fudging is generally secret, the players canít judge.

    Note, kit bashing is another kettle of fish. Thatís above...
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    Whereas I think thatís just sophistry and silly...

    Whereas I think thatís just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

    Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.
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    That's convenient. We'll add in a rule to allow...

    That's convenient. We'll add in a rule to allow a specific person at the table to change the rules at will. So, we're not "cheating", we're using "rule 0". Note, that Rule 0 has changed a LOT over...
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    I've never understood this approach to clerics. ...

    I've never understood this approach to clerics. Ok, you're an adventurer. Cool. That means you're probably wandering around rather than hanging out in a specific temple. Great. But, at the end...
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    But, as I recall in this thread, you talk about...

    But, as I recall in this thread, you talk about booting players for cheating. So, you must have encountered it at least once in your gaming experience.

    And, let's not forget, there is a very fine...
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    This I could really get behind. Ways to ground a...

    This I could really get behind. Ways to ground a cleric into the setting so that she isn't just a wizard with healing spells. Being a cleric (or a druid) should have huge impacts on how that class...
  45. Since all HP come back on a long rest, did you...

    Since all HP come back on a long rest, did you mean this works on a short rest? Not sure what this is supposed to do.
  46. I think that the difference with 4e from earlier...

    I think that the difference with 4e from earlier editions is how up front they were about the keywords. It was part of clarifying the rules that they just flat out slapped a keyword right at the top...
  47. The "hill" in question is an iceberg, floating in...

    The "hill" in question is an iceberg, floating in the ocean. Ice is, typically, pretty slippery. So, no, it's not random DC's. The east side of the iceberg is pretty sheer and slopes down to the...
  48. I'd say there isn't much of a difference, when...

    I'd say there isn't much of a difference, when you remove monsters/NPC's from the equation to be honest. But, by the same token, simply making traps bigger/stronger/faster isn't really a change...
  49. Not really the point though. Sure, magic can be...

    Not really the point though. Sure, magic can be evocative. But, in a S&S game, magic should never be the go-to solution of problems. It should be the absolutely last resort. Certainly not the...
  50. No, not particularly. I tended to use more...

    No, not particularly. I tended to use more "beast" type monsters and a LOT of weird stuff like gibbering mouthers and whatnot, but, no, I didn't really need to change anything. Why would I? And,...
  51. Tony Vargas - I'm going to disagree with you on...

    Tony Vargas - I'm going to disagree with you on this a bit. 4e was very up front about HP being just an abstraction. Unlike earlier editions, every single keyword became a damage type, including a...
  52. Yes, well, 3e shares a fair bit of DNA from...

    Yes, well, 3e shares a fair bit of DNA from Rolemaster and it shows. Unfortunately, as you said, it doesn't actually mesh all that well. Fortunately, it's also very, very easy to ignore.
  53. Yeah, I could get behind that. And, really, the...

    Yeah, I could get behind that. And, really, the barbarian didn't faze me too much, despite getting some built in rituals. Makes the whole "nature priest" thing work pretty well.

    Honestly, it...
  54. Kinda sorta. I find that clerics and druids get...

    Kinda sorta. I find that clerics and druids get enough slots that they can generally have a few rituals in the bag if they want. But, really, I don't mind rituals all that much. Then again, simply...
  55. On the question of "did the Troll bite me"? ...

    On the question of "did the Troll bite me"? Let's unpack that a little shall we? And, let's keep this a 5e example.

    In 5e, a troll does 1d6+4 points of piercing damage. Now, I have an 8th level...
  56. Ahh, the old two smurfs arguing about who is more...

    Ahh, the old two smurfs arguing about who is more blue argument. Oh, my favorite system isn't dissociated because it's "less" abstract than your system. Snort.
  57. Replies
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    Seems like there's some pretty fine hair...

    Seems like there's some pretty fine hair splitting going on. Oh, it's not cheating, it's fudging, which, in any other context, would be called cheating. :D If the DM is deliberately changing...
  58. You could certainly narrate it that way. Of...

    You could certainly narrate it that way. Of course you can. That's the point. You can narrate anything you want to because the mechanics are not actually tied to anything in the game world. Did...
  59. The link is entirely free form though. I can say...

    The link is entirely free form though. I can say that strawberries explode from you every time you are hit and there is nothing in the mechanics that would contradict that. You lost HP because of a...
  60. The issue with that comes when someone tries to...

    The issue with that comes when someone tries to insist that their narration, whatever it is, is supported by dnd mechanics. It never has been. Weíve just internalized our own narratives to the point...
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    I'm frankly baffled how anyone can think that...

    I'm frankly baffled how anyone can think that fighters are the DPS king of the fighty types. Every other class will outshine a fighter wihin its own niche. Rangers out damage all but the most...
  62. How is a rogue getting a +19 to a skill check so...

    How is a rogue getting a +19 to a skill check so that he can auto succeed a DC 20?
  63. You can talk about casters trying to "preserve...

    You can talk about casters trying to "preserve their slots" but, after a few levels, you just have so many slots that it's not really a problem. Particularly if you have two or three casters in the...
  64. The best one I can think of recently is a bag of...

    The best one I can think of recently is a bag of holding that is sentient and wants to and is capable of eating anything we put in there. So, using the bag is often a negotiation and we tend to keep...
  65. Well, that casters have skills doesn't really...

    Well, that casters have skills doesn't really matter. It's not the skills that are the issue. It's the spells.

    Actually, setting DC's low is fantastic IF you want to let the players use...
  66. No, my logic is, "If you're going to criticize...

    No, my logic is, "If you're going to criticize something and something else does exactly the same thing, you should criticize that too." If X bothers you, it shouldn't matter which edition it's...
  67. Not really. Although, to be fair, the campaign...

    Not really. Although, to be fair, the campaign topped out at 9th level, so, I can't speak to 15th level. From my experience though, as soon as I allowed casters, the players pretty much completely...
  68. oh, what the hell. To me, virtually all the...

    oh, what the hell.

    To me, virtually all the criticisms of 4e are pretty much self-indulgent twaddle. For evidence, I simply point to 5e and 5e's popularity.

    There are almost no criticisms of...
  69. Wow, I skip a few pages reading the thread and it...

    Wow, I skip a few pages reading the thread and it turns from an interesting discussion about mini use to yet another edition war wank. Don't you folks get tired of it?
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    One advantage of playing on a VTT is dice...

    One advantage of playing on a VTT is dice cheating becomes extremely rare. You can't really fudge dice when everything is 100% rolled in the open, there are logs saved of all die rolls and all dice...
  71. And, to me, that kinda fits with my point. In a...

    And, to me, that kinda fits with my point. In a group with casters, skills IME get somewhat sidelined. Not completely of course, but, de-emphasized I guess would be the way I would put it. I...
  72. Oh sure. And this was certainly discussed. I...

    Oh sure. And this was certainly discussed. I frankly got kinda tired of what turned out to be a string of "well, what about ..." pitches and just shut it all down. Frankly, one thing that I...
  73. And that's fair enough. Totally get that. I...

    And that's fair enough. Totally get that. I wanted a much stronger sword and sorcery feel, which means that having two, three, or four spells being cast every single round and every single...
  74. Sure, but, the time lost as the wizard places...

    Sure, but, the time lost as the wizard places that fireball in juuuust the right square and then making sure that the spell template is the right size and orientation eats up so much time. IOW,...
  75. The simple answer is probably laziness on my...

    The simple answer is probably laziness on my part. Just a blanket ban on any class with a cantrip achieved most of what I wanted. While we had a monk, no one showed any interest in a monk of the 4...
  76. Well, there's that, but, also, I think there's...

    Well, there's that, but, also, I think there's the tendency of DM's to pile on skill check after skill check and make any failure a catastrophic failure. You want to sneak around and scout out enemy...
  77. Yes, I did. However, no one took it, so, it...

    Yes, I did. However, no one took it, so, it never came up.

    Note, that I did still have rangers and paladins, so, it's not like I went no magic. Just a lot lower.
  78. Not entirely true. Not to bring up edition...

    Not entirely true. Not to bring up edition warring, but, 4e allowed a HUGE variety between and within the classes, even those that couldn't cast spells. However, 5e has gone back to a more...
  79. My Experiment with 5e - No Classes with Cantrips

    Well, we've kinda rounded a bend in our Primeval Thule campaign, and things have changed at the table, so, I thought now is a good time to show the results of my 5e experiment. When running PT in...
  80. I wasn't really comparing 5e characters to other...

    I wasn't really comparing 5e characters to other 5e characters. I was more referring to what clerics could do in 3e. Clerics in 3e, even in core, had a shopping list of combat spells from summoning...
  81. That's actually a pretty nuanced question. So,...

    That's actually a pretty nuanced question. So, if you don't mind, I'll take it in order:

    1. Does vanilla 5e produce a more grounded swords and sorcery game than 3e?

    No. It doesn't. Well,...
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    Honestly, I do hope that whatever setting they do...

    Honestly, I do hope that whatever setting they do put forth, they do so in the same way that Ravenloft was put into 5e - as a campaign, and not a setting. I'm being completely and utterly selfish...
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    Oh, I agree with all of this. I run Primeval...

    Oh, I agree with all of this. I run Primeval Thule currently. I ran Scarred Lands in the past. I have pretty much abandoned all WotC settings except for mining stuff for my own games. Which...
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    Meh, hairsplitting. The second you leave...

    Meh, hairsplitting. The second you leave whatever setting you started in, you're stuck in Planescape/Multiverse (because the two are inseparable). Every module, every guide baselines to the same...
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    Swimming way upthread because I'm still catching...

    Swimming way upthread because I'm still catching up on this long thread, but, I just wanted to comment on this.

    I get "bent out of shape" when they say it because it gets forced upon every single...
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    I reject your reality and substitute my own. ...

    I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is no difference here. The 1e PHB is pretty clear - Monks cannot use swords. Full stop. If the player said the same thing, in either edition, he...
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    You realize that an ad&d monk flat out could not...

    You realize that an ad&d monk flat out could not use that sword right? Never mind proficiency issues, he canít use a sword.

    So how is this a ďlater editionĒ thing?
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    It is kind of funny though. A Staff of Power...

    It is kind of funny though. A Staff of Power with 192 charges means that the character has, effectively, unlimited spells. IIRC, you could "charge" a Staff of Power by absorbing spells cast into it...
  89. This thread contains a poll. Wow. Seriously? "This one movie with an all...

    Wow. Seriously? "This one movie with an all black cast doesn't have other ethnicities in it, so, why should any other work attempt to bring in other ethnicities"? That's the argument you want to...
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    It's always funny how experience differs. We...

    It's always funny how experience differs. We started playing in the late 70's and, among the people I played with anyway, Cha was the dump stat. The only character that had a decent Cha was the...
  91. This thread contains a poll. Hey, here's another example of someone arguing...

    Hey, here's another example of someone arguing that since the rules don't make any distinction, then we shouldn't make any distinction in how we play the character. I was told earlier upthread that...
  92. This thread contains a poll. And that's perfectly fair. No problems. Heck,...

    And that's perfectly fair. No problems. Heck, I'm more than guilty of that myself. :D OTOH, I don't pretend that it's great role play though.



    Nope. But, let's not pretend that it's great...
  93. This thread contains a poll. The Witcher RPG was mentioned as having push back...

    The Witcher RPG was mentioned as having push back for not having art that is inclusive. In all honesty, I haven't been following it at all, and I have no opinion on that particular issue. I simply...
  94. This thread contains a poll. I think that's what I was obliquely referencing. ...

    I think that's what I was obliquely referencing. It's roll play vs role play. If the only thing elven about your character is stat bonus and the ability to see in the dark, that's pretty poor role...
  95. This thread contains a poll. Those are some fascinating links. Especially the...

    Those are some fascinating links. Especially the People of Color in European Art. Interesting stuff.
  96. This thread contains a poll. But, that's my point. How can you "imagine a...

    But, that's my point. How can you "imagine a bunch of characters moving through a dungeon corridor" if you actually have no idea what some of those characters actually look like? Like, for example,...
  97. This thread contains a poll. And, let's be fair, if we're going to have a...

    And, let's be fair, if we're going to have a player race, giving that race relatable genders is a pretty easy way to go. It might be a lot more difficult to insist that warforged have no genders and...
  98. This thread contains a poll. Well, considering Stove is a construct, it has no...

    Well, considering Stove is a construct, it has no gender at all. I probably default in my head to "he" simply because it's a dude playing the character. But, again, there was never any question...
  99. Yup, that did it. Cheers.

    Yup, that did it. Cheers.
  100. This thread contains a poll. Oh, and fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to...

    Oh, and fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to step on so many toes. I obviously overstated my point (my wife constantly tells me I do this) which in turn swirled this conversation in directions I...
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