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  1. Wait, what? Why would any NPC have anything...

    Wait, what?

    Why would any NPC have anything backgrounded? This isn't a class power and it certainly doesn't apply to NPC's. Why on earth would a DM have to background anything? Unless, your...
  2. Something that I realized some years ago is that...

    Something that I realized some years ago is that when you place the responsibility for the success of the campaign in the hands of the players equally to the DM, the players will rise to the occasion...
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    Meh, I really don't see it as a problem. It...

    Meh, I really don't see it as a problem. It works both ways as well. The DM gets to plan around things as well and since there's only one DM, he can implement his plans easier than if the players...
  4. Why would either of those be backgrounded? ...

    Why would either of those be backgrounded? Neither of them involves a town. A rope bridge, obviously, would be part of adventuring, so, a companion wouldn't be backgrounded. Or, if the player did...
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    As billd91 said, anything that increases...

    As billd91 said, anything that increases randomness benefits the DM's side of the equation. The players have to get lucky every time. The monsters only have to get lucky once. Sure, it might...
  6. Yup. Heck, it worked in 3e too. Followers from...

    Yup. Heck, it worked in 3e too. Followers from the Leadership feat didn't gain XP but the cohort did. I'm pretty sure there were other examples too. \edit to add the appropriate quote of the 3...
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    Also noting epithet's post above too. I could...

    Also noting epithet's post above too.

    I could see this as being probably the biggest effect. It would make combat very swingy. It might be very possible for a critter to get two attacks in a row...
  8. Well, it is supposed to be the first female...

    Well, it is supposed to be the first female incarnation of the Doctor, so, I could see not knowing who she is. Also, it goes back to River Song not knowing who the Peter Capaldi doctor was too. ...
  9. Sorry BryonD, laughed at this because the typo...

    Sorry BryonD, laughed at this because the typo was really funny. :D Time to quantum up really needs to be a battlecry for my next superhero character. lol
  10. Again, this is a complete misreading of what...

    Again, this is a complete misreading of what Backgrounding is. But, if that's your interpretation, then I can see why you would argue against it. I would too.
  11. Nobody expects this. No one is arguing for this....

    Nobody expects this. No one is arguing for this. Remember, it cuts both ways. While that element is backgrounded, the player has no access to it either. So, no bringing your T-Rex into town and...
  12. Sure they do. Dueling doesn't mean to the death...

    Sure they do. Dueling doesn't mean to the death all the time, and, in more civilized places, usually didn't. Being the king's champion didn't mean that you were a mass murderer.
  13. But the thing is, the world is still consistent. ...

    But the thing is, the world is still consistent. Not bringing something into the foreground doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just that you don't play it out.
  14. "My patron or God doesn't get involved in his...

    "My patron or God doesn't get involved in his cleric's activities" isn't really all that different from alignment. And, let's be honest, every edition of the game from 1e to 3e made alignment a...
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    I think that it happens a lot more than you...

    I think that it happens a lot more than you think. There's pretty much at least one effect every single round that keys off of a character's turn. Whether it's reactions, things like Shield spells...
  16. Heh, in other words, you've been Backgrounding a...

    Heh, in other words, you've been Backgrounding a major character element for years. :D After all, alignment restrictions are a major element of many classes - clerics, paladins, druids, barbarians,...
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    The problem with rerolling initiative every...

    The problem with rerolling initiative every round, is that there are a number of knock on effects. For example, there are a number of effects that last until the beginning or end of a character's...
  18. Looking at all those quest windows in the third...

    Looking at all those quest windows in the third picture, it looks like the module might be very much mission based. Instead of simply going down in the dungeon and killing and looting, I wonder if...
  19. Rolling this back a bit, I'm reminded of an...

    Rolling this back a bit, I'm reminded of an experience I had with a new player some years ago. He came to the group and, as this was a VTT game, I didn't know the guy from a hole in the ground. No...
  20. Well, give credit where credit is due. lewpuls'...

    Well, give credit where credit is due. lewpuls' articles do always generate a fair degree of response, even if that response tends to be ... err... somewhat similar in nature. :D

    But, frankly,...
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    Yeah, did a bit of extra digging. They...

    Yeah, did a bit of extra digging. They extrapolate the size of Westeros based on the description of the Wall. Fair enough.

    So, yup, you are technically right on that one. And technically...
  22. Folks, you are not going to get anywhere with...

    Folks, you are not going to get anywhere with this discussion with Maxperson. Not because anyone is being unreasonable, but, because you are fundamentally not speaking the same language. Maxperson...
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    I hadn't heard that Luke Cage got the axe too. ...

    I hadn't heard that Luke Cage got the axe too. Kinda a shame. Both shows had a much stronger second season than first and they were both setting up some interesting stories for their third seasons....
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    Yes, because cherry picking examples and ignoring...

    Yes, because cherry picking examples and ignoring the larger argument makes your point so well. :rant:

    But, hey, feel free to ignore things like the fact that the Sword Coast, never minding the...
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    Well, from what I understand, Maxperson is...

    Well, from what I understand, Maxperson is insisting that as per RAW, a contest in 5e D&D can only be between two actors. That any time you have more or less than 2 actors, it cannot be a contest. ...
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    How do you explain A Song of Ice and Fire then? ...

    How do you explain A Song of Ice and Fire then? Other than some bit pieces, the vast majority of the action takes place in a fantasy version of upside down England and Scotland. It's not like ASoF...
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    Seriously?!?!? With all the back and forth about...

    Seriously?!?!? With all the back and forth about how the system works, you've never actually run it? Good grief. X(
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    Yes, pemerton, we're supposed to forget that...

    Yes, pemerton, we're supposed to forget that pretty much every continent in the real world features caverns that are miles, if not tens of miles long. And, a bunch of unlooted tombs within walking...
  29. Thing is, I'd point out that hardcore power gamer...

    Thing is, I'd point out that hardcore power gamer is precisely what the OP is saying is a good thing. After all, if your basic premise is cooperation and survival, then building the strongest team...
  30. No, they really, really weren't. Heck the...

    No, they really, really weren't. Heck the default pantheon was Greyhawk and Greyhawk dieties are not close and personal. Greyhawk never had a "Time of Troubles". The gods never walked the earth. ...
  31. Now, that is flat out wrong. In 2e, gods...

    Now, that is flat out wrong.

    In 2e, gods didn't even have stats. You met a god, you died, end of story. They were unkillable.

    Also, in 2e and 3e, you didn't need to have a god to be a...
  32. There is another fundamental issue here that...

    There is another fundamental issue here that isn't really addressed:

    Why is death the only consequence of losing?

    To me, this idea that only death is a "real" consequence of losing has created...
  33. Actually, the clerics were still there. They...

    Actually, the clerics were still there. They just didn't get any spells because the gods stopped granting spells. Now THERE'S an example of deities taking a very active role in the setting. :D
  34. Well, that's not exactly true. Basic/Expert, for...

    Well, that's not exactly true. Basic/Expert, for example, doesn't even have gods. And clerics are certainly not beholden to anything. AD&D clerics were not really beholden to anything either. ...
  35. I largely agree with what you're saying here,...

    I largely agree with what you're saying here, but, obviously, I don't have a problem with players walling off small bits. Note, that the bits being walled off are generally not going to apply to...
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    Whereas, for me, I'd rather have three settings -...

    Whereas, for me, I'd rather have three settings - one for lower technology, one for merchant republic and one for shining knights so that the settings could actually be fleshed out and detailed,...
  37. Not speaking for anyone else, but, I'd say that's...

    Not speaking for anyone else, but, I'd say that's fair.



    Well, all games really. After all, the DM determines the adventures, NPC's, and pretty much anything that isn't specifically player...
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    As I recall, rerolling initiative is an optional...

    As I recall, rerolling initiative is an optional rule in 5e. IDHMBIFOM, but, I seem to recall something about that in the 5e DMG.
  39. Dunno who you are implying. Certainly not me. ...

    Dunno who you are implying. Certainly not me. Got any specifics you'd like to put on the table?




    No. Why would it? The basic premise is that the DM has 100% of the power. Using...
  40. And, really, I think this is where most of the...

    And, really, I think this is where most of the disagreement lies. To me, the patron is a minor class element. It doesn't really impact play and, IMO, leaving it out doesn't really change the class...
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    But, again, we're talking tiny, tiny proportions...

    But, again, we're talking tiny, tiny proportions of the population. Ok, Hercules travels to Spain. He's a demi-god. Not exactly your average individual.

    All this aside though, my basic point is...
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    Sure. But, when it takes a day to travel 10...

    Sure. But, when it takes a day to travel 10 miles, just how much distance do you actually need?

    Derren mentions Odysseus. Yeah, that's kinda my point. He sailed the Med. You realize that's...
  43. Never minding that Aldarc - do DM's really create...

    Never minding that Aldarc - do DM's really create 100% of their settings? I sure don't. I WANT my players to create stuff. You're a cleric of Cuthbert? Fantastic. You tell me what that means. ...
  44. Oh, yes, absolutely agree with this. I...

    Oh, yes, absolutely agree with this.

    I probably wouldn't background stuff later on. Maybe I suppose. For example, the monk in my current Thule campaign has a bar. It's not meant as a major plot...
  45. Yeah, I agree with this. It's mostly corner case...

    Yeah, I agree with this. It's mostly corner case stuff though. As a general rule, it's not terribly unfair to say that capture scenarios are a bad idea.
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    I guess I missed those stories where King Arthur...

    I guess I missed those stories where King Arthur traveled to China. Or Beowulf traveled to Africa.

    Let's not forget that the population densities back then would be a fraction of what they are...
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    So what? Wizards or casting clerics mean I need...

    So what? Wizards or casting clerics mean I need more geography? :erm:
  48. Wow, that was faster than I thought. I found the...

    Wow, that was faster than I thought. I found the pdf right away. Cool. Here's the text from Chronica Feudalis (p 6)
  49. Actually, I don't think it's weird. Look at...

    Actually, I don't think it's weird.

    Look at the counter examples that have been tossed up. All the "whaddabout's" about backgrounding the Enterprise in a Star Trek game, backgrounding a T-rex or...
  50. Oh, man, it's been a while. I'm pretty sure it's...

    Oh, man, it's been a while. I'm pretty sure it's Chronica Feudalis. I'd have to do some SERIOUS digging to find it. Hrm, should be on my RPGNOW library though. I'll do some diving.
  51. It is hands off though in the sense of...

    It is hands off though in the sense of backgrounding. Note, we have posited that the character's church is backgrounded - it will not be the focus of play. Things like history, setting, icons, are...
  52. I'd point out that most of the ballooning has...

    I'd point out that most of the ballooning has been done by those who are trying to "prove" that backgrounding is somehow bad. I mean, we started with a simple bear companion that somehow morphed...
  53. Obviously. Backgrounding can't be done for major...

    Obviously. Backgrounding can't be done for major campaign elements. If we're playing a post apocalyptic setting a la Mad Max, then backgrounding a motorcycle couldn't be done. Sorry, I thought we...
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    But, I think that's the point. 60 miles is...

    But, I think that's the point. 60 miles is hardly a huge distance, yet, the Canterbury Tales makes that an epic.

    Like I said earlier, the tendency of RPG settings to be massively huge is a...
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    Can someone please summarize this for me? I've...

    Can someone please summarize this for me? I've totally lost track of this.
  56. Doing something someone else doesn't like doesn't...

    Doing something someone else doesn't like doesn't necessarily make you a bad DM. That's true. Deliberately doing it to someone when you absolutely know that they don't want you to? That's a lot...
  57. Well, it wouldn't be a single fight would it? ...

    Well, it wouldn't be a single fight would it?

    It would be that fight, plus the next at least one encounter which would deal with the repercussions of that.

    And, again, it's apples and oranges. ...
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    For those worried about what this means for the...

    For those worried about what this means for the direction of dnd going forward.

    You should be worried.

    The most iconic elements of dnd are a direct result of competitive play. The most iconic...
  59. Honestly I think the basic issue is a...

    Honestly I think the basic issue is a disagreement over scale. For some, any limitation on dm authority is unacceptable. For me and I think others, I just don’t see the big deal.

    The dm is going...
  60. /edit - whoops, sorry, nothing to see here. This...

    /edit - whoops, sorry, nothing to see here. This line of discussion will not produce anything productive.
  61. It's funny. You keep insinuating that I'm...

    It's funny. You keep insinuating that I'm somehow a special snowflake or entitled, or triggered, or whatever the heck.

    Hrm, let's do a side by side comparison shall we?

    You: Design a...
  62. But, they aren't. That's been established...

    But, they aren't. That's been established multiple times in this thread that the trade off isn't one of power or mechanics. This isn't 1e where this sort of thing was done quite commonly (paladin...
  63. Let's put it more directly then. If you know...

    Let's put it more directly then.

    If you know that one of your players would hate an idea, would you still pitch it?
  64. Slight difference though. I'm presuming since...

    Slight difference though. I'm presuming since you said you "once" went to a game, that it wasn't a long term thing. It's not like you had been playing with this group regularly for some time and...
  65. I would just like to quote this because it is so...

    I would just like to quote this because it is so rare that Imaro and I agree on anything RPG related. :D

    It's nice when people just understand the point that's being made. Makes me wonder if I'm...
  66. Where is Captain America's shield when he's not...

    Where is Captain America's shield when he's not using it?
  67. FUnnily enough, this actually happened recently...

    FUnnily enough, this actually happened recently in our group. The group wanted to play Planescape. I've made no secret that I'm not a Planescape fan. I offered, quite sincerely, to back out and...
  68. Did you not say that you had a player walk...

    Did you not say that you had a player walk because you ran a game that he would not like?
  69. "may get told no" is perfectly fine. Will...

    "may get told no" is perfectly fine.

    Will always get told no is where I think the problem lies.
  70. Oh, I totally agree. Personally, I wouldn't...

    Oh, I totally agree. Personally, I wouldn't background these relationships. I think they're great. And, I have no real problems with a DM who uses them. That's fine.

    But, again, we're talking...
  71. ROTFLMAO. Dude, it's very, very likely that I'm...

    ROTFLMAO. Dude, it's very, very likely that I'm older than you.

    This has nothing to do with age or entitlement. Note, even in the Leomund's Chest example, in the 5e example, there is no chance...
  72. Whoa, love that opening. Haven't seen these yet....

    Whoa, love that opening. Haven't seen these yet. I'm waiting for them to be released in Japan with subtitles so I can watch them with my daughters together.

    But, I have to say that this is VERY...
  73. Now, why do you think that is? Why did they add...

    Now, why do you think that is? Why did they add that bit to D&D that only stuff that is not worn or carried is at risk? It obviously hurts verisimilitude. It's hardly believable that I can be...
  74. Kinda sorta. Those limits are placed within the...

    Kinda sorta. Those limits are placed within the writeup of the game. It's not like the player chose to put that limitation there. IOW, the player likes everything else about the class, just not...
  75. Put it in other contexts. "Hey, we're going...

    Put it in other contexts.

    "Hey, we're going to go out for dinner every week for the next six months to a year but we are only going to go to restaurants you hate."

    "Hey, we're going to have...
  76. It is a sign of dickishness, (not sure where...

    It is a sign of dickishness, (not sure where indecency comes in) when you pitch that game 100% knowing that at least one of your players absolutely hates the idea that you are pitching. That's the...
  77. Nobody is saying the DM should not control the...

    Nobody is saying the DM should not control the NPC's. We're saying that this one specific NPC, that only impacts one PC and no other PC can ever interact with, gets taken off the table. Infinity-1...
  78. But, who's forcing the DM to do anything here? ...

    But, who's forcing the DM to do anything here? If anything, I'm giving less work for the DM. The DM no longer has to worry about what to do, if anything, with this patron. The player is not...
  79. And fair enough. But, again, at the end of the...

    And fair enough. But, again, at the end of the day, what changed? The animal companion is still hidden and fades into the background (not the mechanical version, just, not in the front of play) and...
  80. When the choices are, "Play the way I want to...

    When the choices are, "Play the way I want to play or don't play that character", I'm going to say that that is the DM forcing things on the player. I dunno, I see things like having a discussion...
  81. Seriously? You're going to hate the game and...

    Seriously?

    You're going to hate the game and not have fun because that one character doesn't have to deal with his or her patron? Really?

    And note, if we go with the way 5ekyu has described...
  82. See, at the end of the day, I really have to ask,...

    See, at the end of the day, I really have to ask, who is all this for? I mean, the other players probably don't care too much about my character's relationship with his patron. I obviously don't...
  83. wow, you agree with billd91 in the post before...

    wow, you agree with billd91 in the post before this, but, tell me I'm inventing things. :erm:

    What exactly, then, do you mean that I must accept the consequences of choosing a class if you...
  84. Yes. 5ekyu has flat out said, and others have...

    Yes. 5ekyu has flat out said, and others have said too, that if you want to play a class, you MUST accept everything about that class or don't play that class. So, if you play a warlock, you MUST...
  85. Sigh. Still missing the point. Even if you...

    Sigh.

    Still missing the point.

    Even if you add that one, ok, great. Now 20% of the episodes feature a threat to the Enterprise. Whoopee freaking do. The point I was making was that even if...
  86. They separated the saucer section because the...

    They separated the saucer section because the writers wanted to show off this cool new thing the Enterprise could do. :D

    But, in any case, even had they not separated, how would the story...
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    Heh, my ranger in a 5e Ravenloft game dump...

    Heh, my ranger in a 5e Ravenloft game dump statted Con. 8 Con FTW baby. :D
  88. Argh, sorry about the multiple posts. It is a...

    Argh, sorry about the multiple posts. It is a rather busy thread.

    But, stepping back a second here because people, including myself, seem to be getting lost in the weeds a bit.

    What are we...
  89. Now, let's roll this around to what's actually...

    Now, let's roll this around to what's actually being discussed. The DM comes to you and tells you, you have to do X because the dragons are telling you to do X. If you don't do X, you will no...
  90. Sauntering my way through a lot of pages. This...

    Sauntering my way through a lot of pages. This is a busy thread.

    But, it is good to see that someone here gets precisely what I'm talking about. If you don't like how I describe things, I...
  91. You're seriously going to take Maxperson's...

    You're seriously going to take Maxperson's interpretations of anything at face value? After THIS thread? Really?

    I mean, right off the bat, he he put's Encounter at Farpoint as an example of the...
  92. You mean like a 3e paladin's mount? That's...

    You mean like a 3e paladin's mount? That's summonable and dismissible at will? Or the 5e version of the same with the Mount spell that paladins get? Or that evoker wizard that gets to avoid allies...
  93. I.e. Backgrounded. :D

    I.e. Backgrounded. :D
  94. On the Enterprise. I was a bit curious about...

    On the Enterprise.

    I was a bit curious about this, so, I did a bit of Wikipedia diving. Of the first three seasons of Next Generation, there are 74 episodes. Of those 74 episodes, 14 actually...
  95. Maybe because I don't get a lot of game time, so,...

    Maybe because I don't get a lot of game time, so, telling one player, "nope, sorry, the rest of us want to play this, see you in about six months or a year when we're done" is a pretty dick move.
    ...
  96. It's not a fallacy. Nor is it mockery. And,...

    It's not a fallacy. Nor is it mockery. And, frankly, I don't see it as anything close to a bad idea. But, more on that later.


    Whereas me, telling a player, nope, sorry, my ideas are so...
  97. But, here's the rub. The player has told you...

    But, here's the rub. The player has told you that he or she is not interested in this. He or she does not want to deal with the patron in the game. Full stop. So, why is the DM then putting this...
  98. Heck, thinking about Doctor Who, that's a perfect...

    Heck, thinking about Doctor Who, that's a perfect example of Backgrounding. The Tardis always appears as a big blue box. Yet, other than as a sort of running gag, it is never made an issue in the...
  99. And that's totally fair. The Dm has done his...

    And that's totally fair. The Dm has done his part. He's made orc babies not an issue. Now, if the player chooses to make it an issue, that's on the player. The player has obviously changed his...
  100. Funny how we're supposed to trust our DM's but,...

    Funny how we're supposed to trust our DM's but, our DM's have this sort of opinion of players.

    Good grief, my players would most likely be far, FAR nastier to their characters than I ever would.
    ...
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