Empires, Trade, and Gold!

Greetings!

This is really some excellent stuff! There is some very interesting ideas being discussed! I love it!

Kenjib!

How are you? I'm good. Now, to answer your question I would have to say that the "colonies" as I mentioned, aren't properly understood as "COLONIES"--as in what Spain established over South America, or even what England established in North America. My mistake! I should properly describe them as more along the lines of small colonies established throughout the Black Sea region and the Mediterranean by the ancient Greeks, or perhaps like the trade colonies initially established by Britain in India during the early 1700-1800's. The British establishment of colonies in India was initially very different from what was established in North America. Thus, those two models are probably more accurate to describe the colonies that I had in mind.

That being said, they are more involved in legitimate trading relationships, as well as lucrative exportation of native products back to the empire. Thus, while highly profitable, the existance of, and relationship of those colonies doesn't produce the level of wealth that would destabilize an entire region's economy. However, it does remain a potential development though!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In most of the D&D games I run, economics fits in the "don't detail it unless you have to" bin. Having a detailed champaign world is nice, but you can end up painting yourself into a corner if you make up details you don't need. One can be pretty vague, and still have it be quite believable (so long as your players aren't economists ).

I've never had a player that was actually interested in econiomics except insofar as it influenced their plotline. Nobody's ever wanted to become a merchant, or a prince that did trade negotiations, or whatnot. I also tend to use plot devices that are... less mundane. Sure, there's economics. But there's also vendettas and betrayal, evil clerics, dragons, romance, and gods knows what else. The plight of little green peices of paper is not particularly dramatic, and thus of little interest to my players. If it doesn't interest them, it makes sense to only interject economic reality at need - like when the players try to dump thousands of gold pieces on a small market, or similar odd instances.

I'm sure nobody has forgot the d20 economic system created by the mighty Old One :::ALL HAIL HIS NAME!!!:::

Here is the link: http://gez117.free.fr/dnd/economic.html

Sweet! in my campaign the players are all a bit low level for this, but I always loved the Companion rules and allowing the Characters to really get involved in the world, and have businesses etc. etc.

This sort of stuff is great to discuss, and I've already saved a copy of Old One's system for future perusal. Thanks for that link!

-Will

Thinking about your game world's economy is commendable. I always found that economics were a way for the players to really interact with the world. But I never made any detailed models for this. Economy has always been a meta-plot element in my game world. Economical events can be important factors to drive and shape your story-line.
Example: PC might not be concerned about goblins invading some far of mountain range until they discover that prices of weapons, armour, horseshoes,... are exploding.
In a low magic world economy is a great plot drive. In high magic worlds PC go questing for arcane components and magical items. But something mundane (to us) as nutmeg has been as strong a lure for adventurers in our own world. Mundane commodities will be much more sought after and controling these might give someone more power than this or that magic item.

General Economic Climate

Eben said:

Thinking about your game world's economy is commendable. I always found that economics were a way for the players to really interact with the world. But I never made any detailed models for this. Economy has always been a meta-plot element in my game world. Economical events can be important factors to drive and shape your story-line.
Example: PC might not be concerned about goblins invading some far of mountain range until they discover that prices of weapons, armour, horseshoes,... are exploding.
In a low magic world economy is a great plot drive. In high magic worlds PC go questing for arcane components and magical items. But something mundane (to us) as nutmeg has been as strong a lure for adventurers in our own world. Mundane commodities will be much more sought after and controling these might give someone more power than this or that magic item.

Click to expand...

I think I agree wholeheartedly with you Eben! For my own Shattered World campaign, I have tried to bear in mind general economic realities and use them to help shape the setting. For example, the region in which much of the adventuring is ocurring span several smallish kingdoms. One (Dinas Brin) has extensive supplies of coal and iron-ore, and is a leading specialist in the production of steel. However it is hemmed in by mountains and by the ambitions of its neighbours. One would like to conquer Dinas Brin because they {a} want the weapons, and {b} want the income that the industry generates. However Dinas Brin is allied with a third, coastal, kingdom that has a strong agricultural base. It exploits this relationship by selling much-need food in return for steel, which it both uses (it needs protection too from the expansionist kingdom) and as its best source of income.

See how some basic econmics have created both the flavour of the places and also a dynamic which I am exploiting in the storyline? If the Pcs want to interact deeper economically i will need to look more closely, But in the meantime they are aware of the tensions and understand the reasons why, which can't be a bad way to develop understanding of the setting.

My (now unfortunately) previous campaign, and my next campaign are based in an area where Human nations are just starting to be established (between two powerful warring races that have now exhausted themselves). There are four main areas of settlement.

The western region, on the coast of a large 'Chesapeake' like bay comprises the Kingdom of the Coast and the Republic of Haven. The Kingdom is attempting to settle and/or organize all of the land into itself, and begin working the local resources. The Copper mines of Ytella have greatly aided development of that otherwise backwoods area in the north of the Kingdom. The Republic, on the other hand, consists of one mainland city (Haven) and a number of settled Islands. Haven is a merchant powerhouse for it's region, with the best shipyards and sailing fleets on Coolwater Bay.

The Southern region, consisting of the Kingdom of Mandan and the Independent Duchy of Arundel, is a bit to the east of the Western region, on the other side of the Formian Empire. Since the seas between them and the west are so hostile (Sahaugin), there is virtually no shipping between them. The Southern area is rich in agriculture, but poor in all other aspects, being far from the manufacturing areas of the central region and the trading power of the west. The only thing they've got going for them is their proximity to the ruins of former Calasean cities, the source of much salvaged wealth. (Unfortunately, it also means they'll be on the front lines should the war start up again.)

The Central region consists of the Duchy of Gotham, the City-State of Freetown (a kind of primitive Communist state) and the Town-state of Athens. This region is dominated by the Treva river and it's tributaries. It is wealthy in resources (iron, timber and other necessary items) and has good roads and a great river system. Trade is flourishing and this is becoming the wealthiest region. The Duke of Gotham rules over the second largest population on the continent, and will soon declare himself King of Trevasta (The entire Treva-Trevast-Vasta river basin).

Lately, ships from Haven have started to penetrate the treacherous mouth of the Treva to reach the town of Athens. This will lead to increased trade between the Central area and the West, helping both.

On the south side, the King of Mandan is saving his pennies, attempting to amass the 8 million silver dollars it will cost to build a Portal between his capital and the economic powerhouse that is Gotham. Even so, both he and the Duke of Gotham are working to claim and develop the sparsely populated uplands that lie between their two realms.

The North region consists of the City of Coramyr, the Duchy of Tyne and other, secretive towns. This is the center of the Morgothians, or worshippers of the Evil God Morgoth. They have plenty of resources, but are people-poor, and transport-poor. The terrain is very hilly and the settlements are far (by road, relatively speaking) from the central region. This is perhaps the poorest region of the four.

Shark,

I am sure you saw my post on the other board. But I still never heard from you how simple/complicated do you want it to be?

The beauty of economics in an RPG is it can be as simple Country V is the richest, country A is the 2nd, country B & D have equal wealth.

Or

You can create complicated import/export graphs and currency values, and match them to the local supply and demand of an area, as well as matching them up to long term forcasts of goods, based on the amount of "perfect" knowledge that is availble.

In a campaign I am working on right now the rise and fall of empire is determined by trade routes. There is an inland sea with a broad river as an outlet into the ocean. The Dorian Empire formed along the banks of this river as it controlled the vital bottleneck for sea trade lanes from the Central Kingdoms (around the inland sea) to the Southern Kingdoms. The wealth generated from this crucial geography formed the backbone of Dorian power.

Now, the Dorian Empire is in trouble. An alliance in the wild lands to the southeast threatens to open up overland trade routes that could previously never exist due to the lawlessness of the land. Because of this the Emperor has funneled large amounts of support, including both arms and soldiers, to Kirganital, a dangerous land ruled by factional warlords who do not want to see the centralization of power that would come about from the proposed alliance. Kirgan warriors are famed across the western lands for their strength, size, ferocity, and brutality. Their prowess is indeed so legendary that the Emperor's own primary personal bodyguard is an imposing, veteran, Kirgan. The Kirgans are one of the primary factions keeping the alliance from successfully forming, an act which would bring great economic benefit to the impoverished region (including Kirganital) as massive trade routes begin to form through the area.

Even the Dorian's traditional chokehold over sea trade is in trouble. A secessionist faction in Sorecia, a island vassal state of the Empire, has greatly grown in strength and numbers. Recently, a large portion of the Sorecian fleet (which had always been the backbone of the Empire's western fleet) has defected and joined the rebellion. They have taken to rampant piracy against Dorian merchants and have even been so bold as to launch a raid against an important coastal city on the Dorian mainland after drawing away the bulk of the navy in a decoy pursuit.

Compounding the effect of this piracy is a truce recently made between the the Sorecian rebels and the merchant kings of the inland sea whereby the merchant kings' vessels are granted immunity from piracy in exchange for their selling of arms to the rebellion. The rebels are, of course, using the booty of raids on mostly Dorian merchants to buy these arms. The emperor is furious and debating on a course of action against the merchant kings, but they are very powerful and have tremendous influence over the rest of the nations around the inland sea, making harsh reprisal against the merchant kings a very risky proposition (since them and their allies are vital trade partners for the Empire).

The emperor is just starting a massive crackdown against the rebellion, and has deployed a ruthless ambassador with liberal executive powers to stay with the Sorecian king to make sure that the goals of the Empire are met and the rebellion is destroyed. Armed contingents of Imperial troops have been stationed in the Sorecian capitol and many more soldiers are on the way for future deployment against the rebels across the Sorecian Isles.

The Sorecian king walks a fine line, complying with the ambassador for fear of the Empire, yet trying his best to subvert his demands in order to maintain the waning support of his people. He has yet to make a firm decision as to with which side his loyalties truly lie.

The Dorian Empire may soon find itself in a downward spiral as it's vital trade networks collapse, and it's outlying territories continue to secede. The fantastically opulent merchant kings, who live and die by sea trade, seem best poised to emerge as the western world's next great powers. This would signal a socially cataclysmic rise of the middle class and have tremendous repercussions throughout the world.

The Empire also holds several island colonies throughout the southern seas from which cheap labor and exotic goods are acquired. They are under no immediate threat but they are eyed jealously by some of the more powerful of the Southern Kingdoms.

Howdy SHARK! Good to see your irrepressible self again.

Barsoom is in a similar situation to your campaign, it looks like. The dominant political power is an old empire called Kish, that thrives largely due to its rich agriculture and military strength. Because of geography, however, it's cut out of a great deal of the trade in the world.

Making a killing on that trade right now are Las Familias, the great trading houses of Saijadan. For most of recorded history, Saijadan was a land in turmoil where dukes and barons feuded and fought under the overlordship of the ruling Kie Empire. But a hundred years or so ago, a group of mercantile families got together and organized a revolution against Kish, and threw their armies right out of the country, triggering a world-wide collapse of Kie authority. When the dust settled, Las Familias had gotten the Dukes of Saijadan to agree to let THEM (LF) collect all tolls and tariffs across all the Duchies. LF would then dole out the money to the Dukes. What's happened is that the families have taken over the country and with the immense wealth they've gained from their complete monopoly on trade they're now spreading out around the world, establishing offices all over. They are kingmakers, string-pullers and diplomats extraordinaire. And they all hate each other with a passion.

But will they be able to pull together now that the Kies are expanding once again? Just one of the many bleak prospects facing my campaign.