Psionic vs Arcane: Build me some characters.

Majere said:

I know Thanee is a supporter of the sorcerer, but Id hate to hassle him to producing two character to one thread

As for the comment, it is fair. In the other thread you have argued strongly of the balance of the classess, here is your chance to support your argument with hard facts. Im suprised you havent jumped at the chance to prove some of your points.

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As stated, I have a lot of NPCs to make for my game. If I am going to sit down and stat out my characters, that's where my major interest lies. I already feel that Sorren satisfactorily showed that sorcerers are, within their limitations, not too bad off (but still, I think the sorcerer is a weak class.)

I don't feel I could serve my position well making a sorcerer anyways, since 1) Thanee's example uses a power I feel needs errata'd and 2) I beleive a sorcerer is weak to begin with. So I would expect such a match-up to show the sorcerer wanting. That being the case, why waste my time with the match up when by those points, I beleive that the outcome of the match-up is what you beleive it will be.

Perhaps you could querry one of the folks who weighed in to say that they don't agree with the premise of the "how to buff up the sorcerer" thread? They might actually have some reason to beleive a sorcerer is competitive that they might take into account that I don't.

Now a wizard, I could probably make a credible attempt at. (Though he still wouldn't match the DCs of an un-errata'd energy missile). That said, you have sort of stacked the deck against me if you expect a wizard not to use scrolls. That's one of their bennies.

However, I don't feel a wizard's strengths are best demonstrated by design contest to deal with a known set of obstacles. The wizard's broad availability of spells coupled with their ability to leave a slot open means that their abilities are best highlighted in blind tests. Of course, that makes the whole deal more random as well.

I think I brought this point up in another thread, but it is my considered opinion that balance is very situation-sensitive, and the ultimate measure of balance is whether the GM (and fellow players) find it difficult to accomodate the character in question, and/or whether characters of the different classes are left with competancies that make them feel they have an important contribution to the game. I feel, from actual experience, that a psion is not difficult to accomodate, though I would feel hard pressed to come up with a representative test to demonstrate this short of... running a few games.

Simply by using direct damage capacity, you are putting things in favor of the psion. Direct Damage is NOT the arcane caster's strength...even when psions are taken out of the equation. Or at least not against a single foe...melee types have always outperformed casters in that regard.

Just for kicks though, here's an attempt:

Race: Halfling
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 20(24)

BAB: +5
Ray Spells: +9
Skills: Concentration +15, Spellcraft +13, others
Feats: Spell Focus(Evocation), Spell Penetration, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell

Equip (49k): Cloak of Charisma +4(16k), Rod of Lesser Maximize (14k), 2 Rods of Lesser Empower(18k), Cloak of Resistance +1

Spells per Day: (6) 8 8 8 6 4
Spell DC: 17 + Cl, 18 + CL for Evocations
Spells Known: (9) 5 4 3 2 1
1st: Magic Missile, Alarm, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor
2nd: Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Resist Energy, Invisibility
3rd: Fireball, Haste, Dispel Magic
4th: Dimension Door, Enervation
5th: Wall of Force

Rogue: 1 Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray (depending on DM's interpretation of how these interact), 4th lvl slot, 1 use Max rod.

Treant: 1 Maximized Fireball, 3rd lvl slot, 1 use Max rod

Dread Wraith: Four Empowered Magic Missiles, 4 third level slots

Hezrou: Four Enervations…possibly including another or an (empowered) fireball depending on the rolls, 3 fourth lvl slots 1 fifth lvl slot for good measure. Counts as damage, right?

Nasty Fire Elemental: Can’t empower Cone of Cold (waaaah), and they’ve got REALLY good reflex saves (double waaah) so…five empowered, maximized magic missiles? Using rods and feats as necessary about 2 fifth lvl slots, 2 fourth lvl slots and 2 uses empower rod, and 1 third lvl slot

Net: 3 fifth slots, 6 fourth lvl slots, 5 third lvl slots; all 3 uses Max rod, 2 uses Empower Rod
Remaining: (6) 8 8 3 0 1; Four uses Empower Rod

Notes: A real sorceror would choose to buff the rest of the party or maladict the enemy rather than directly attempting to inflict damage much of the time. Discounting damage, many effective techniques come into play. Blindness reduces enemy damage output by about 50% as well as increasing damage dealt to enemy by dint of reduced AC. Banishment or Fear can give first round wins against some of the more unpleasant creatures above...as a psion might simply dominate them. Haste will likely improve damage output of EACH weapon-user (of 10th lvl) by about 65% per round!
(Assume 2 attacks. Avg damage 1.75x where 1 equals top iterative times chance to hit + second iterative at -5 to hit...net 25% reduction from top iterative thus net 1.75x for the attack. Adds extra attack to top iterative...+1.0x as well as +1 to hit for each...2.75x multiplied by 1.05...net increase of 65%)

Other things of note: Invisibility, Obscuring Mist, Wall of Force, Alarm, Haste...all extremely powerful effects that cannot be easily replicated by a psion.

Edit: D'oh! Some petty and likely very confusing mistakes corrected there.

Sorcerer Entrant

What can I say, I like the underdogs!

Star Elf Sorcerer 10 (from Unapproachable East)
S 8, D 16, C 8, I 10, W 10, Ch 22(26)

Spells Known: 9/5/4/3/2/1
Spell Slots: 6/8/8/8/7/4

Feats: Spell Thematics (Cold Orb, Scorching Ray, 1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th; adds +1 to caster level) (from Player's Guide to Faerun), Purify Spell (from Book of Exalted Deeds), Empower Spell, Sudden Maximize (from Miniatures Handbook)

Magic Items: Cloak of Charisma +4 (16k), Rod of Lesser Maximization (14k), 19k gold

Tactics:

Cold Orb (lesser) is from Miniatures Handbook.

Rogue - Empowered Scorching Ray (CL 11, 3x(4d6)*1.5, no save)
Treant - Empowered Scorching Ray (see above), Magic Missile (CL 10, 5d4+5, no save)
Dread Wraith - Empowered Magic Missile x4 (CL 10, (5d4+5)*1.5, no save)
Hezrou - Empowered Purified Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray x1 (CL 11, 3x(32)+3x(4d8)*.5, no save), Empowered Purified Cold Orb x1 (CL 11, 5d8*1.5, no save, no SR)
Greater Fire Elemental - Empowered Rod Maximized Cold Orb x2 (CL 11, 40*1.5+5d8*.5*1.5, no save, no SR), Cold Orb x1 (CL 11, 5d8*1.5, no save, no SR)

Total of 12 rounds to kill all oponents, and remaining slots of: 6/6/8/2/4/3.

I haven't worked any on skills or other items, so there is some other flavor to be added.

Let me know if I missed anything here.

Reis.

[Edited to add more detail!]

Psion said:

Now a wizard, I could probably make a credible attempt at. (Though he still wouldn't match the DCs of an un-errata'd energy missile). That said, you have sort of stacked the deck against me if you expect a wizard not to use scrolls. That's one of their bennies.

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Id have to disagree here
It depends on how you use your caster, but for my wizards I dont pick useful situational spells. Those are the spells I stick on scrolls: passwall,knock,alarm,erase
The spells I pick everyday are generally ones that are useful all the time, the blow em ups. If I was going to put blow em ups on an item I would use wands not scrolls.

Further it is a fair comparrison
Psions get scroll equivalents.
Psions get wand equivalents.

All three classess are fairly equally disadvantaged in this comparison.

Majere

@Psion: The first psion does not use Energy Missile, and the Energy Stun (which has the same DC progression) can be replaced by any other Energy power, the save would only be made on a natural 20, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

Reis_Thunderwood said:

Feats: Spell Thematics (Scorching Ray is the only relevant spell), Purify Spell, Empower Spell, Sudden Maximize

Magic Items: Cloak of Charisma +4 (16k), Rod of Lesser Maximization (14k), 19k gold

Tactics:

Rogue - Empowered Scorching Ray
Treant - Empowered Scorching Ray, Magic Missile
Dread Wraith - Empowered Magic Missile x4
Hezrou - Empowered Purified Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray x1, Empowered Purified Cold Orb x1
Greater Fire Elemental - Empowered Rod Maximized Cold Orb x2, Cold Orb x1

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I have no idea what any of that means
The race doesnt even meat the requiremtents of the comparrisson.
If someone could tell me what the feats and the spells do in the format I asked for I can work out the damage on these spellls. And then see how well you did !

Thanks
Majere

Shadowdweller said:

Simply by using direct damage capacity, you are putting things in favor of the psion. Direct Damage is NOT the arcane caster's strength...even when psions are taken out of the equation. Or at least not against a single foe...melee types have always outperformed casters in that regard.

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Then use the thread as an exercise and lesson in how to make your spell casters more effective at doing damage to the bad guys.
An analysis of your sorcerer is below

Majere

@Majere: I updated my post with more information. Thanks!

Reis.

Reis_Thunderwood said:

Hezrou - Empowered Purified Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray x1

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That spell deals only like 60 damage on average, if I am not mistaken?
[(12 x 8 (Max) + 12 x 2.25 (Emp)) - 30 (FireRes, 3 x 10)] x 0.65 (SR)


The same error, Shadowdweller made, basically, by not figuring in the defenses. The four Enervations would only deal 7 negative levels on average (1.75 each), so they would achieve nothing (just lower the save of the Hezrou), effectively.


Besides, if Metamagic Rods are the only way for the sorcerer to make decent use out of their spells, then their certainly is something wrong.

Other things of note: Invisibility, Obscuring Mist, Wall of Force, Alarm, Haste...all extremely powerful effects that cannot be easily replicated by a psion.

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Yeah, that's certainly true. Tho, the psion I posted has quite a few powers, for which the same could be said, and much better defense options, too.

Here's the list again... I don't think it lacks behind in diversity, or do you?

P: Crystal Shard, Detect Psionics, Defensive Precognition, Inertial Armor, Vigor; Psionic Suggestion, Concussion Blast, Detect Hostile Intent, Energy Stun; Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dispel Psionics, Touchsight; Psionic Dominate, Schism, Psionic Dimension Door, Psychic Reformation, Energy Adaptation, Telekinetic Maneuver, Metamorphosis; Psionic Plane Shift, Power Resistance.

Anyways, I like, that you actually tried to make a character, which is playable (tried the same with the psion).

Bye
Thanee

@Thanee: Yep, I only counted energy resistance once for each ray. I'll have to review again.

Reis