Worship and D&DG

Staffan · Apr 12, 2002

I suddenly got a little curious what stance D&DG takes toward worship of deities and what benefit the gods get from being worshipped. In Planescape and Forgotten Realms, it seems that gods need to be worshipped or they die. Other settings have their gods more or less independent of worship - the impression I've gotten from Greyhawk indicates that those gods don't need worshippers at all (two of the handful of Greater GH gods, Istus and Boccob, seem to have rather few worshippers), and in Mystara the Immortals get some amount of power from worshippers but it's not their sole power source.

So, what does D&DG have to say about deities needing/having use for faithful?

Upper_Krust · Apr 12, 2002

Hi Staffan!

Staffan said:
I suddenly got a little curious what stance D&DG takes toward worship of deities and what benefit the gods get from being worshipped. In Planescape and Forgotten Realms, it seems that gods need to be worshipped or they die. Other settings have their gods more or less independent of worship - the impression I've gotten from Greyhawk indicates that those gods don't need worshippers at all (two of the handful of Greater GH gods, Istus and Boccob, seem to have rather few worshippers), and in Mystara the Immortals get some amount of power from worshippers but it's not their sole power source.

The fact is that even in settings where Divinity directly corelates to Worship such things are not determined objectively.

What we need is something that quantifies both cosmic/divine power and worship...but where would you ever find one of those!

Umbran · Apr 12, 2002

Re: Re: Worship and D&DG

Upper_Krust said:
What we need is something that quantifies both cosmic/divine power and worship...but where would you ever find one of those!

Shameless, U_K. Simply shameless

Need is a pretty strong word, though, isn't it? I've run a bunch of campaigns, and never found a need to quantify the powers of the gods. Why do you say we need such a thing?

Take this as a challenge, or as another opportunity to push your wares, as you see fit

Drew · Apr 12, 2002

Upper Krust, what exactly are you doing for your worshipper system. I mean, is something available? Is it in the works? Where will we be able to get it?

I'm very interested in stating out my gods, and I would find such a supplement very useful.

Upper_Krust · Apr 13, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Worship and D&DG

Hi Umbran mate!

Umbran said:
Shameless, U_K. Simply shameless

Sorry!

I knew when I responded to the post with the above comments that I was technically breaking my own mantra of not refering to my own work without first being specifically asked about it - even though I did it in an indirect tongue-in-cheek way that only someone who was familiar with my work would 'get'.

Umbran said:
Need is a pretty strong word, though, isn't it? I've run a bunch of campaigns, and never found a need to quantify the powers of the gods. Why do you say we need such a thing?

I'll address your comment directly even though I really shouldn't have to - adding the smilie (I thought) denotes a light hearted comment.

The use of the word need was in direct response to the nature of this thread (Worship and the D&Dg) and Staffans comments ("...it seems gods need to be worshipped or they die...").

Umbran said:
Take this as a challenge, or as another opportunity to push your wares, as you see fit

A challenge, perhaps...but not one I'll gain any XP from!

Drew · Apr 13, 2002

Hey, Upper Krust! Did you miss my post?

Upper_Krust · Apr 13, 2002

Hi there!

Drew said:
Upper Krust, what exactly are you doing for your worshipper system. I mean, is something available? Is it in the works? Where will we be able to get it?

The work has been/is being reshaped to correspond directly with Deities & Demigods, as such it won't be available until D&Dg enters the SRD (probably 2 months, maybe less).

Initially it will be released as 5 .pdfs (4 x 48, 1 x 64) which I hope (fingers crossed

) will eventually warrant a printed 272 page hardback.

I'll be starting a new thread in the House Rules Forums in a day or so, the previous thread can be found here (though as ever some of the details are out of date):

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4850

Drew said:
I'm very interested in stating out my gods, and I would find such a supplement very useful.

I appreciate the interest!

Upper_Krust · Apr 13, 2002

Drew said:
Hey, Upper Krust! Did you miss my post?

No.

(I was replying in order).

Cintra · Apr 13, 2002

Staffan -

In answer to your question, there are several pages in the first chapter where the book explores why mortals bother to worship deities, and in turn, what gods get out of it and why they bother to "use" mortals.

The book doesn't give an absolute answer on these questions, though. Instead, it poses several options, discusses how choosing each of these options affects your game world (for good and ill), and even provides adventure ideas that would fit for different choices. For example, campaign effects and adventure hooks that are appropriate for if gods are actively involved in manipulating mortals vs. if they are much more distant from their worshippers.

When you read through this chapter and consider how to design your own world's pantheon (or how to describe an existing one), you consider the ramifications of choices such as:

How infinite is divine power?

How much accurate knowledge to common folk have about what the gods are really all about, and what they do with their time and energy?

Where does the divinity of the gods come from (complete with all the effects this has on the pantheon)?

Do worshippers provide power to the gods or do the gods have their power regardless of their worshippers?

What do gods think of mortals?

Why do mortals worship gods?

Can gods die?

If you want to select multiple options under a heading (such as having various gods with completely different origin methods from one another), it touches on that situation, too.

There are also a number of useful side-bars that mention how the default pantheon answers some of these questions, how your players might react to some choices, and even how to set things up so that (unlike the default assumptions) the demon-princes and similar figures can actually grant spells and powers to their own worshippers!

Umbran · Apr 13, 2002

U_K: No need to apoligize

I was just trying to jokingly give you the lead in you needed.

I myself robably don't need Deities and Demigods, or the Worshipper Points system, because in games I run the PCs never actualy interact with the deities. I perfer games where there are mortal powers, and immortal ones, and never the twain shall meet. That means that actual quantification of deific power is pretty meaningless for my games.

My games, however, are not the only ones.

So, to answer my own question - you need to quantify godly power if you plan to run a game where the PCs can have meaningful interaction with such powers.

Some things you describe actually don't seem to be about quantification at all. Sounds more like they are about creating a pantheon that is logically consistent, and that has reasonable impact upon culture. You don't need numbers for that, but it can help if someone who has thought and researched can point out what things you might need to consider....

So, those are the needs of such a product.