Summoning Party Members

Dog Moon · Oct 7, 2004

I'm playing in a group with a summoner (Who's a Necro wannabe since he only summons Undead creature) and I came up with what the group (though not the DM) thought was an awsome idea: summoning party members. Creatures who are summoned cannot be killed (They go back to where they came from). Also, with the summoning feats, we would gain some HD, some strength, the cold subtype and I think a couple other cool things. Thus, it would be awsome because we wouldn't have to worry about being killed (Summoner excluded) and we'd be buffer. The Summoner would have to create the spell, but are there any rules anywhere against doing something like this, or is it basically No DM would allow it?

Caius · Oct 7, 2004

to me it sounds more like trying to use a variant of a charm or suggestion spell. I don't really think a summoned NPC (that is what it seems like you are looking for) would fight without being under some compulsion. Even then I don't think you can have a charmed npc do anything that would endanger themselves. I don't use charm or suggestions spells very much, nor do I have my players handbook handy to have a quick look.

but it does sound like an interesting and inventive way to get something done. although I've found at least with my DM if he's not at least 75% with the idea it's probably not going to happen.

Darklone · Oct 7, 2004

I think no DM would allow it

Henry · Oct 7, 2004

I wouldn't allow it as DM, unless the PC's started on another plane separate from the summoner.

Even then, many spells, such as Magic Circle against evil/good, dismissal, banishment, etc. would be effective against these summoned PCs. In short, I would look on it like the PCs trying the "Whirlwind Attack/Cleave/Bucket of Snails" business from 3E, but that's my personal take.

Liquidsabre · Oct 7, 2004

Well first you need to be on another plane in order to summon the extraplanar creature, next you would the appropriate spell that summons creatures for the material plane (or a flexible use of the summon spell).

A summon spell would never work on a creature on the material plane, the spell just doesn't work that way. It summons EXTRA-planar creatures. Nice try though.

Taloras · Oct 7, 2004

Hmm....actually, my DM allowed this in one specific circumstance. Im playing a half hound archon half silver dragon.....he ruled that I was native to the plane of Celestia(and therefore not a native outsider), and an enemy used dismissal on me. The next round our sorceror/wizard used a summoning spell(not sure what one, this is an epic game btw) to summon me back, with extra hd, extra str and con(augment summoning hehe). That lasted for the rest of the combat....after that I went back and found my own way home (Celestia -is- the home of Bahamut, and since im a Vassal of Bahamut, it wasnt too hard the DM ruled)

Henry · Oct 7, 2004

Liquidsabre said:
A summon spell would never work on a creature on the material plane, the spell just doesn't work that way. It summons EXTRA-planar creatures. Nice try though.

Actually, Summon Nature's ally doesn't necessarily go extra-planar, but I don't think the designers had the PC's in mind when they wrote up the augment summoning, etc. feats and class abilities.

Oh, there is one other problem; if you wanted the spell to summon PC's and give them those bonuses, not only should they be extraplanar, but they would need to be two to three levels higher than what could be summoned with an equivalent spell; I'd have to say to summon a group of, say, 5th level pc's, it'd have to be a monster summoning VI or so. A group of level 1's could be summoned with a summon monster II or III.

Kyrail · Oct 7, 2004

Taloras said:
Hmm....actually, my DM allowed this in one specific circumstance. Im playing a half hound archon half silver dragon.....he ruled that I was native to the plane of Celestia(and therefore not a native outsider), and an enemy used dismissal on me. The next round our sorceror/wizard used a summoning spell(not sure what one, this is an epic game btw) to summon me back, with extra hd, extra str and con(augment summoning hehe). That lasted for the rest of the combat....after that I went back and found my own way home (Celestia -is- the home of Bahamut, and since im a Vassal of Bahamut, it wasnt too hard the DM ruled)

Seems fine to me, as long as he had a spell of high enough level to grab a creature of your power, and if you're Epic I kind of doubt it unless you've added epic level summon spells as well. Summon spells always made sense to me since the alignment of the creature often matches the caster, and the summon is in no real danger, that they would go willingly. Unless the mage who summoned you told you across planer boundries before hand though, would you actually answer a random summoning call with no knowledge of the plan? Give you a will save if no, just like when summoning hostile creatures.

Rackhir · Oct 7, 2004

Another problem with the sort of summon (creature) that you are trying to create, is that unless you are playing with variant summoning rules (such as in the DMG). The creatures you call are generic, you can't call specific creatures. So in theory you might be able to call a Cleric Lv8, you can't summon Joe the Cleric.

With regards to the "Other Dimention rule" you can summon plenty of creatures from the prime material plane, however it's only outsiders who are not native to the plane that aren't killed for real, because unless they are Gated to the plane their true essence is not there. This is not the case for Prime Material plane natives.

I think it's somewhat unclear as to the origin of summoned creatures, I've seen it argued that they are literally a generic version of a creature. Sort of a simulacrum. I've also seen it argued that the spell just picks a "average" creature and brings it to the summoner. In either case the summoning enhancements are generally viewed as being bringing a more powerful creature of that type rather than buffing up a creature.

Sejs · Oct 7, 2004

I would allow Calling PCs that are Outsiders (Tieflings, 20th level monks, Genasi, 5th level Divine Disciples, etc), but in no way would I allow Summoning them. To clarify, I would allow Calling using the Planar Binding line of spells; unless the PC in question is in real tight with your god, they're not gonna be chosen to assist you when you cas Planar Ally.

When you use a Summoning spell, you get a typical member of that species - you Summon a Tiefling, you get Generic Average Tiefling, as presented in the MM (or where ever they happen to appear), you don't get Badass PC with Class Levels and Swank Gear Tiefling.