GT and firearms?

ChrisWaller · Oct 14, 2004

Could any one give me an idea of how firearms are handled under the GT rules? Did Wulf use the d20 Modern approach or cook up something else?

Rodrigo Istalindir · Oct 14, 2004

I don't have Modern, and it's been so long since I looked at it I'm not sure what if anything GT has in common with it.

Obviously, the basic 'to hit' mechanic is the same. GT has rules for creating firearms based on characteristics rather than a long list of specific weapons that's bound to disappoint some purist. It does have stats for the basics, though.

It has rules for aiming, full auto, burst, bracing, covering and supressing fire, and a few incidental items (bipods, etc) and variant ammo types.

Victim · Oct 15, 2004

GT's firearms rules are most like Spycraft's. The suppression, covering, burst autofire and strafe manuevers are pulled pretty much straight from Spycraft.

ChrisWaller · Oct 15, 2004

Thanks

I appreciate the prompt responses. Thanks folks.

Wulf Ratbane · Oct 15, 2004

Victim said:
GT's firearms rules are most like Spycraft's. The suppression, covering, burst autofire and strafe manuevers are pulled pretty much straight from Spycraft.

Yep. d20Modern was... unsatisfactory.

Off the top of my head the biggest change from Spycraft was to standardize all bursts/autofire ammo "costs" to 3-rounds at a time (instead of 3 for a burst and 5 for autofire).

Wulf

Rodrigo Istalindir · Oct 15, 2004

Wulf Ratbane said:
Yep. d20Modern was... unsatisfactory.

No kidding. This thread prompted me to go read the Modern SRD and I remembered why we looked at D20 Modern and then threw it on the shelf to collect dust.

I still haven't seen anything for d20 that does a good job with pseudo-realistic modern combat (like Aftermath or Recon), but Spycraft (and GT, by extension, I guess) works well enough unless you've got a bunch of Guns'n'Ammo or Soldier of Fortune readers playing.

apoc527 · Oct 19, 2004

Here's a question. I started a d20 Modern game using the old X-com: UFO Defense game as a campaign setting. It's going well so far (only played once), and I'm planning on picking up GT so I can ditch the AdC's entirely (the whole thing with PrC's and AdC's just "pollutes" the fine concept of d20 Modern's 6 base classes).

However, this is a threat about GT and firearms, so here's a question regarding them.

The Burst Fire mechanic...it's a beast, we all know that. Here's my problem with a straight adoption of the one from Spycraft for a game that uses HP and Massive Damage. The +2 damage bonus from Spycraft works in Spycraft because the game uses a VP/WP system. The idea was that automatic weapons shouldn't necessarily wear down a character's VP that much faster than firing single shots, so they limited the damage to +2. Against the WP, which is a more or less static number, the +2 is pretty powerful.

Now, in GT, which presumably (my copy hasn't arrived at the FLGS yet) uses a HP/Massive Damage System (judging from the other posts around here), doesn't that +2 damage bonus become meaningless? +2 DICE of damage (like original d20 Modern) works well because it creates an increased liklihood of triggering Massive Damage (admittedly, I haven't see how GT handles increased levels of lethality...perhaps I need to look at that).

Anyway, thoughts on this matter?

(It matters to me, because of an incident last night in the game. The players were playing Ordinaries for a little while as part of the introduction to the campaign. They were there to get killed when alien-made human cyborgs burst out of a black Chevy Astro and started shooting. Anyway, these cyborgs had the same stats (for purposes of this story) as the Mid-level Mercenary out of the Menace Manual. Basically, a +8 to ranged attacks with their AK-47's. I am using a rule from a Fading Suns d20 product, though I think I'm going to change it somewhat, that essentially allows three kinds of burst fire: 3 round, 6 round, and 12 round. This gets you a +1/2/3 DICE bonus to damage. Now, in order to get any kind of real effect, I had to use 12 round bursts on these Ordinaries. That's kind of silly. Well, at least against the Strong 3/Tough 3 Ordinary. He had lots of HP and a Con of 15 or so.

Have you guys been through lots of gunfights with the GT rules? How have they worked out. Do they "feel right?"

HeapThaumaturgist · Oct 19, 2004

Not really all that applicable, since my current games are all D20Modern/Grim-Tales amalgalms ...

The way I handle weapons and MDT saves to up the lethality a bit:

MDT DC = 10 + 1/2 Damage

and

MDT forced on every critical hit, regardless of damage.

That makes the DCs, on average, a little higher and forces even low saves on criticals against people with large Cons. (One of my supers has a 22 Con, so ... )

--fje

Angel Tarragon · Oct 19, 2004

D20 Moderns Weapons Locker is great. I have used it in many games (Cthulhu D20, my Sliders/Tangents game, Urban Arcana [naturally], Spycraft heck even one of my players in DnD uses the stats for one of the guns [Double Barrel Shotgun] for his D20 Modern character that ended up in the DnD game!) I haven't played or even had the opportunity to get a sneak peak at Grim Tales, but I imagine Weapons Locker would be fine with it.

Victim · Oct 20, 2004

apoc527 said:
Here's a question. I started a d20 Modern game using the old X-com: UFO Defense game as a campaign setting. It's going well so far (only played once), and I'm planning on picking up GT so I can ditch the AdC's entirely (the whole thing with PrC's and AdC's just "pollutes" the fine concept of d20 Modern's 6 base classes).

However, this is a threat about GT and firearms, so here's a question regarding them.

The Burst Fire mechanic...it's a beast, we all know that. Here's my problem with a straight adoption of the one from Spycraft for a game that uses HP and Massive Damage. The +2 damage bonus from Spycraft works in Spycraft because the game uses a VP/WP system. The idea was that automatic weapons shouldn't necessarily wear down a character's VP that much faster than firing single shots, so they limited the damage to +2. Against the WP, which is a more or less static number, the +2 is pretty powerful.

Now, in GT, which presumably (my copy hasn't arrived at the FLGS yet) uses a HP/Massive Damage System (judging from the other posts around here), doesn't that +2 damage bonus become meaningless? +2 DICE of damage (like original d20 Modern) works well because it creates an increased liklihood of triggering Massive Damage (admittedly, I haven't see how GT handles increased levels of lethality...perhaps I need to look at that).

Anyway, thoughts on this matter?

(It matters to me, because of an incident last night in the game. The players were playing Ordinaries for a little while as part of the introduction to the campaign. They were there to get killed when alien-made human cyborgs burst out of a black Chevy Astro and started shooting. Anyway, these cyborgs had the same stats (for purposes of this story) as the Mid-level Mercenary out of the Menace Manual. Basically, a +8 to ranged attacks with their AK-47's. I am using a rule from a Fading Suns d20 product, though I think I'm going to change it somewhat, that essentially allows three kinds of burst fire: 3 round, 6 round, and 12 round. This gets you a +1/2/3 DICE bonus to damage. Now, in order to get any kind of real effect, I had to use 12 round bursts on these Ordinaries. That's kind of silly. Well, at least against the Strong 3/Tough 3 Ordinary. He had lots of HP and a Con of 15 or so.

Have you guys been through lots of gunfights with the GT rules? How have they worked out. Do they "feel right?"

For pistol type weapons, that +2 bonus to damage from bursts is pretty huge. It takes a decent size pistol to do 1d12. However, on the low end, the damage is still one. You probably won't have too many other damage bonuses on a gun - Point Blank Shot, most likely, which doesn't always apply. So that +2 is going to be the only thing keeping your weapon from doing a pathetic 1 or 2 points.

Also, in D20 Modern, Burst Fire A) requires a special feat to use, and B) slaps a hefty -4 penalty on the attack. Since burst fire in GT doesn't require 13 Wis and a feat, should it be as effective?

On the other hand, high damage rifles or shotguns already do 4 or 5 d4. It doesn't take much extra damage to make them reach MDT for most enemies. Con 15, level 6 ordinaries are going to be the exception. I wouldn't expect elite guys like that to fold up instantly.

Finally, the Narrow Burst option really sucks. Since a character using a gun is almost always going to be Rapid Shooting, a Wide Burst is usually better.