Book of Exalted Deeds - Exalted feat question

Greetings,

Does killing an (Evil) creature while it's sleeping considered an evil act ?

Would doing so make me lose my Exalted feat ?

I play a rogue with Sacred Strike in Trainz campaign and I killed a bunch of sleeping gnolls.
We've looked in the BoED and we could't find a defenitive answer.

Opinions needed


Thanks.

Well, were it me, I would consider that an evil act. Killing a helpless defender is evil. As for the second part of your question... you would have to atone for your gross transgression or risk losing your exalted status. This would likely take the form of a service performed for your church (read: quest). Of course, that's just my take on it.

Calypso

Hi Yig,

On the surface of it, I would say yes, you would lose your exalted status, would need to atone and perform some exalted service to possibly get back the exalted status.

Reason
An exalted person will seek out alternatives before simply cutting throats (and most of exalted status would never even consider such actions unless it was humane and even then... ).
Firstly, how do you know the creatures where evil? And even if they where, do they deserve to die for it?
Secondly, how do you know their redemption was not a possibility? Had this previously been attempted?
Thirdly, where the Gnolls a threat while asleep?
Fourthly, how many other options where available than simply killing them?
There were a multitude of good actions that could have been taken but instead a neutral action at best was performed.

The primary difference between a good person and an exalted person is that the exalted will always try to do what is good. A good person will normally try to do what is good. The difference is subtle but definite. I suggest you read the second chapter I think of the BoED. This outlines quite specifically the nature of good and what an exalted player will always try to do.

Realistically, exalted characters are a pain in the backside for a party and normally the player too when in the normal course of adventuring. Get used to taking prisoners, treating them well and effectively being good all the time. Taking the easy path by slitting sleeping Gnoll's throats is obviously not on.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

A lot depends on the (unfortunately missing in your post) context.

If the gnolls in question had just finished robbing, raping, killing, and eating a bunch of defenseless villagers, and were sleeping off the effects of their debauch, then I'd say you were justified in killing them.

OTOH, if the party is strolling along, comes across some sleeping gnolls, and says "Ooh, gnolls, they're evil, let's kill them all" then I'd say your exalted status is in definite jeopardy.

Remember that being exalted is "above and beyond" just being good - you've got to hold yourself to the highest possible standard.

Yig said:

[...] Opinions needed [...]

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Hi!

The answer lies within the BoED.

Page 10 (cont'd from page 9, Violence) tells us that harming defenseless creatures (even evil ones) is an evil act.

I'm DMing a player character who once killed a prisoner gagged and bound at a tree when the PC left the battle scene (losing the fight), because the PC thought (correctly) that leaving behind the prisoner alive would give him the opportunity to join the opponents and seeking out vengeance.

I changed the alignment from neutral to evil because killing a defenseless foe (prisoner) seems very evil to me. It is nothing more than exerting one's power over the life of another.

The player opposed, arguing that stupidly leaving behind the prisoner alive would cause more evil. That's true; but that's the reason why evil characters are evil and not neutral or good.

If you want a more realistic approach IYC you must sort out the darker and lighter shades of grey.

Kind regards

I am Yig's DM. Because it's what I consider his first offense, and because no one IMC is very familiar with the BoED, I decided to give him reprieve and not take away the use of his exalted feat. This once. I gave him a warning that such actions would probably mean the loss of use (at least until atoned) of his exalted feat.

And I then suggested that he posts the situation on ENworld.

The situation is currently happening in Cooperative Dungeon 4 (we're playtesting it), and you can actually go see the adventure itself for reference right here on ENworld:

Of course, Yig, you are absolutely forbidden to go lurk that thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88988

The act happened in ROOM 4 of this dungeon.

From the POV of his character, there are Gnolls in the region doing some business near their hamlet (CD4), and are sometimes attacking stray villagers, with no villagers having survived such attacks so far. The villagers have asked the PC's to investigate and make stop the Gnoll attacks on the hamlet's inhabitants (the Gnolls haven't attacked the Hamlet per se).

So that's the situation in more detail, I hope it will give you better reference to give your feedback.

Oh... (OT), CD4 is turning out to be awesomely fun, and I think it has the potential to rival many published adventures (congrats CD4 contributors !).

So if he wakes the Gnolls up individually and sneak attacks them to death in the "surprise round" it would be more acceptable ?

I would only punish the player if there were other ways of incapacitating those gnolls... sap and subdual damage comes to mind. Maybe sneaking their weapons away. Still it would be hard to manage this situation well.

Are the lives of villagers less important than his virtue ? Strange.

I say slap his wrist lightly this time around...

Look, guys: this is what makes playing Exalted PC so fun! It's the moral conflict!

Killing evil gnolls in their sleep is Evil. Plain and simple. An exalted character cannot do such a thing and remain exalted. He must think of a different way. That's the point.

Don't like it? Fine. Don't be Exalted.

Nail said:

Look, guys: this is what makes playing Exalted PC so fun! It's the moral conflict!

Killing evil gnolls in their sleep is Evil. Plain and simple. An exalted character cannot do such a thing and remain exalted. He must think of a different way. That's the point.

Don't like it? Fine. Don't be Exalted.

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I think Nail hit... the nail... right on the head with this! Of course, it's the old "mechanical advantages" balanced with "role-playing", but that seems to be the point of exalted status.

Rashak Mani said:

So if he wakes the Gnolls up individually and sneak attacks them to death in the "surprise round" it would be more acceptable ?

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No one suggested that. That would be the same as killing them in their sleep.

I would only punish the player if there were other ways of incapacitating those gnolls... sap and subdual damage comes to mind. Maybe sneaking their weapons away. Still it would be hard to manage this situation well.

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Well, if the critters are helpless, I think that it is implied that there is another way to incapacitate them. A sleeping dragon is another matter entirely.

Are the lives of villagers less important than his virtue ? Strange.

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Well, according to the BoED, the end doesn't justify the means, so yes.

I say slap his wrist lightly this time around...

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I didn't even penalize him. I will always give my players ONE warning with any given character.

ONE.