Heavy Fighters v. Light Fighters: An equal fight?

I just wanted to try to pick apart some theories and numbers concerning the topic listed above. Has anyone every really delved into the number crunching for such a fight? I can't recall every really going into a fight in a fairly unmagical, head-to-head combat between heavily armed/armored fighters and light fighter-type (monks, dervishes, swashbucklers, etc.).

Barring any terrain or general tactical advantage, bar fairly uncommon/unlucky/lucky rolling, would I be right in assuming that the heavy fighters would still take the day if all were of an equal level with equal amounts of equipment? I'm not saying it would be easy, but I can't see the lightly armed fighters walking away with a victory.

Even bending the numbers for the lightly armed, giving them a one person edge (i.e. two heavy verse three light), I still think the heavies will have an advantage. This is what gets me since I understand lightly armed fighters will use hit and run tactics, but there has to be some general point where the tide turns in the lightly armed fighters' direction. At what point is that?

Am I wrong in this assumption?
 

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JoeGKushner

First Post
Depending on the build, a monk could possibly take a fighter apart. That's relying on a lot of 3rd party support however.

For example, the monk book for the SL setting has two devistating feats that have become standard for almost all monks I've seen who qualify for it. The first increases your critical threat range by 2 and this stacks with improved critical. the second improves your critical multiplier by 1.

Outside of that, no, a fighter with power attack will usually whip a fighter with weapon expertise as the guy with weapon expertise usually doesn't have the strength to damage the power attack guy, or he wouldn't have weapon expertise in the first place.
 

Heavies generally win, because they can specialize in Strength, getting both a to-hit and a damage bonus.

Light fighters improve AC and to-hit by improving their key ability, meaning that, all things being equal, the Light fighters will hit the heavy fighters as often as they are hit in return, but the heavy guys will be doing more damage per hit.
 

Felix

Explorer
It all depends on the situation. Seriously. If it's toe-to-toe killfrenzy, the heavies will win. If it involves lots of tactical movement with difficult terrain, then whoever can move around the battlefield (the lightly armored guys) will have a huge advantage.

It's fairly useless to run any numbers, because it all depends on circumstance. In some historical battles, the heavy troops destroy the light skirmishers. In others, the skirmishers pick the heavies apart.

Not that that will stop someone from running numbers around here... :)
 


Anax

First Post
You might want to take a look at this, although it's more about large-scale combat. :)

http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/aow.html

In a one-on-one fight and within the D&D framework, I do think that it depends heavily on the terrain, except for one thing: unless your light fighter has a technique to deal heavy damage on a single strike (for example: Rogue levels for Sneak Attack, or Duelist levels for Precise Strike) or can make ranged attacks, then that fighter is going to be at a disadvantage, as the heavy fighter can always get at least one solid attack off every round that the light fighter dodges in to attack.

Sadly, I have to say that while the *right* thing for the mobile fighter to do here is trip attacks or grapple attacks, that probably won't work well--these are heavily focused on strength. Even if the heavy fighter hasn't neglected to take Improved Grapple or the like in a defensive capacity, things still aren't great for the light fighter. He can close in and force the heavy fighter to give up his heavy weapon, but the better strength and armor is still going to cause trouble.

I do think that monks are the best choice for taking on fighters, though, specifically because they don't lose much in a grapple. Unlike the fighter, who must switch to a secondary weapon and lose damage output during a grapple, the monk can keep using her unarmed strikes at full power. On the down side, a monk's flurry of blows cannot be used for grappling. So this all comes down to whether the monk's better damage beats the fighter's better attack rolls.


So, in short: A monk (who, while a "light fighter" type, should put a pretty good amount of stats in strength) is the type most likely to take a normal fighter in an even fight.

In a fight with interesting terrain (and to be honest, most fights should have *some* sort of interesting terrain), a duelist or a fighter/rogue may be able to do enough damage during each attack doding in to keep things interesting.

But in general, a heavily armed and armored fighter is going to beat a lightly armed and armored fighter if they find themselves fighting each other for some reason, unless the heavily armed and armored fighter has neglected his study of tactics and is actually a Barbarian in disguise.

As for why light infantry beats heavy infantry in that URL I mentioned: That would be because what they describe as light infantry is *archers*. And I think that with infantry in D&D that's an important rock-paper-scissors cycle: heavy infantry beats light infantry, light infantry beats archers, archers beat heavy infantry. And light infantry (especially the sorts who get special bonus damage amounts) can be very seriously deadly if they are fighting together with heavy infantry.


Now, on to gripes and moans: Right now, my primary character is a halfling monk with 10 strength and 20 dexterity. And let me tell you--this is a *really* difficult path to take. When you think martial arts, you sort of imagine that a physically weaker but better coordinated and trained fighter should be able to do Bad Things to an opponent who's slow on his feet. Unfortunately, the design of Trip and Grapple in D&D doesn't allow for that at all--if you are low on strength, forget tripping or grappling *anybody*. And if you are small *and* low on strength, you're going to need to not only max out escape artist but also get magical aids to survive grapples. (Ow.)

For a while, my monk (who has rogue levels to improve her damage output) has been depending on shuriken as her main combat option... which isn't actually too awful when you can manage to get a full round sneak attack off. :) Mmm. Flurry of Blows.

And when the half-orc monk in the party grapples somebody, my character can also join in the fun quite happily and turn the opponent into paste.

But in a straight fight, it's very very rough, even with dodge, mobility, spring attack, and combat expertise. And even with other party members to distract the opponent.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The Amazing Dingo said:
Barring any terrain or general tactical advantage...
[...snip...]
Am I wrong in this assumption?

Well, the problem is that in your assumption, you eliminate the typical modus operandi of light fighters. A light fighter lives to use terrain and tactical knowhow to good advantage.

Yes, if you force a light fighter to stand and trade blows with a heavy, the light will lose. If you put a heavy in difficult and complicated terrain, where speed and manuverability can be used to great tactical advantage, the results will probably fall the other way.
 

Felix

Explorer
I forgot to mention, a Barbarian can very easily be considered a "light" fighter, and they certainly don't lack anything when it comes to toe-to-toe damage dealing.

A heavy fighter would probably be advised to do something other than stand and attack, and instead use his bonus feats to do other fightery tricks.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Typically a light fighter would be a skirmisher.

So given that there is no terrain benefits or general tactical advantage (like tiny rooms to fight in), the heavy fighter in full plate with a two handed sword could be taken apart by the light fighter with shortbow or sling and a faster movement rate.

That is a different question to saying "would a fighter with heavy armour and heavy weapons beat a fighter with light armour and light weapons", where the answer is pretty obvious.

Another variant on the question would be a heavy fighter against a rogue - and if the rogue gets lucky with initiative and with feinting the outcome might be difficult to guess (of course there are all kinds of other factors - reach weapons, spring attacks etc. etc. etc.)
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Felix said:
I forgot to mention, a Barbarian can very easily be considered a "light" fighter,

Exactly - Barbarians have all the speed and manouveability of light infantry (not much behind cavlry even) with all the power of heavy infantry

- their the perfect skirmishers and will bet a heavy infantry fighter in a proper fight (proper meaning one where terrain etc is a factor)
 

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