Returning Magic Weapons + Full Attack

phadeout · Dec 31, 2004

I'm a little confused as to how the Returning enhancement for magic weapons reallys works. The description could be taken in different ways from the DMG. According to they way I've seen Returning items work in NPC examples (Take the Master Thrower character example from Complete Warrior, using the Returning Javelin, PG 59).

It appears that in the example characters, Returning will let you make a Full Attack using the same weapon in one round. So if you have +6/+1 BAB, you could throw a Returning dagger, have it return, and throw it again in the same round to make 2 attacks.

When I read the descriptive text on Returning, and sit and think about it, it somehow seems that the item returns on the next round... BUT, at the same time the text says on the next "turn" not round, so maybe you should be allowed to make a full attack with returning a weapon?

"... It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). ... "

Just want to make sure that I'm correct on the "can be used to make a full attack".

Khaalis · Dec 31, 2004

I'll be interested to see the responses on this as well. I've always taken as the DMG states with turn meaning round, so only one shot per round. If you want full attack, you need multiple items. This would make the most sense since if you are a master throwing and hurling daggers you will need multiple daggers for a full attack. With returning daggers you at least only need one set of daggers (one per iterative attack), not dozens of daggers.

phadeout · Dec 31, 2004

I've been looking more closely at the example character in CW, and under possesions what do I see? Oh... jee... "3" Returning +1 Javelins....

Still, I wanna see the replies too.

Hypersmurf · Dec 31, 2004

The weapon doesn't return until just before your next turn.

Of course, if you throw more than two, you have a problem... since they all return at the same time, and you can only catch them if you have a free hand. If you throw six, then as soon as you catch the first two, you don't have any more free hands...

-Hyp.

Khaalis · Dec 31, 2004

phadeout said:
I've been looking more closely at the example character in CW, and under possesions what do I see? Oh... jee... "3" Returning +1 Javelins....

Still, I wanna see the replies too.

This is what I thought but since I dont have the book handy at work, I didnt want to comment on it. This supports my original view. One toss per weapon.

shilsen · Dec 31, 2004

Hypersmurf said:
The weapon doesn't return until just before your next turn.

Of course, if you throw more than two, you have a problem... since they all return at the same time, and you can only catch them if you have a free hand. If you throw six, then as soon as you catch the first two, you don't have any more free hands...

-Hyp.

Still, it's a good strategy as long as you have lots of hit points

Klaus · Dec 31, 2004

Actually, they don't return at the same time. They return split-seconds apart (same delay you took to throw them). So it would be like two guys juggling, say, 4 bowling pins, except that there is no second guy and the bowling pins return on their own.

Sammael · Dec 31, 2004

Where does it say in the returning description that a character must have a free hand to catch it? What's stopping a character with returning shuriken, for example, to "catch" them into his shuriken belt pouch by holding it up in the air or something?

Furthermore, would you let someone with returning javelins catch more than one in his hand, provided he made a successful Dex check (perhaps with a penalty for each javelin already held)?

HellHound · Dec 31, 2004

Binford the Giant, a halfling psion / rogue in our longest-running 3.0 / 3.5 campaign (now in semi-retirement at the dizzying heights of level 23), was the master of skiprocks.

Returning Skiprocks.

We always ruled that they returned 6 full seconds after being thrown. So he would throw four of them in a round with a full attack, and then end the round with none... and then just start throwing them again as they appeared in his hands.

(footnote: at level 1, it was comical how many kobolds were slain by skiprock ricochets - the only thing more lethal was the nature cleric's hawk).

Khaalis · Dec 31, 2004

Sammael said:
Where does it say in the returning description that a character must have a free hand to catch it? What's stopping a character with returning shuriken, for example, to "catch" them into his shuriken belt pouch by holding it up in the air or something?

Furthermore, would you let someone with returning javelins catch more than one in his hand, provided he made a successful Dex check (perhaps with a penalty for each javelin already held)?

I believe the statement refers to this sentance. If you have no free hands, you cant catch it. In your example of the pouch, I would still consider this a "free hand" as it is specifically being used to catch the item.

"If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown."

Personally on your second question... yes I would allow them to catch more than one Javelin on return (probably up to as many as 4 for reality sake). Javelins are relatively small weapons, and they return read for use, which means to me that they appear in an easy to grab manner in your hand, not that they are hurtling towards you.

However, I would say that it takes a move-action to separate the multiple Javelins (effectively sheathing the extras by say sticking them point down inthe ground) to be ready to actually throw one. A free action if they want to just drop them. However, if they drop them, picking them up is a move action that will cause an AoO.

JMHO. YMMV.