Elaborate Parry and Combat Expertise

pbd · Jan 1, 2005

A few PrCs grant the elaborate parry special ability, which adds +4 to the AC bonus for fighting defensively or using total defense.

When fighting defensively you take -4 to hit, but get +2 to AC; with elaborate parry you get +6 total. Total defense is a standard action that provides a +4 to AC; +8 total with elaborate parry.

The description of elaborate parry doesn't say anything about combat expertise, which is required for the PrCs that have elaborate parry. It would be nice to figure out a way to merge elaborate parry with combat expertise (which is basically a feat that lets the user fight defensively better than those without the feat).

I would consider it to allow you to double the benefit of CE, soyou get 2 AC for 1 to hit, but his might be overpowered.

My question is; has anyone house ruled elaborate parry to work with CE and how so?

Much thanks for any help,
pbd

Brain · Jan 2, 2005

pbd said:
I would consider it to allow you to double the benefit of CE, soyou get 2 AC for 1 to hit, but his might be overpowered.
pbd

Yes, that would be overpowered, and way different from what was intended.

RangerWickett · Jan 2, 2005

Fighting defensively does stack with Combat Expertise. I had to look this up a long while ago, but I know it's true. So I imagine Elaborate Parry would stack with Combat Expertise. If you have 5 ranks of Tumble, you get an extra +1 to fighting defensively, so you could take a total -9 penalty to attack and get +12 to AC.

Brain · Jan 2, 2005

Yes, it stacks, but he isn't asking about stacking in this thread. He wants to gain the elaborate parry bonus just for using expertise and not fighting defensively, or find some other house rule for it.

pbd · Jan 3, 2005

Brain said:
Yes, it stacks, but he isn't asking about stacking in this thread. He wants to gain the elaborate parry bonus just for using expertise and not fighting defensively, or find some other house rule for it.

From the SRD:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Int 13.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

From the wording, especially where it says that character without CE can fight defensively to gain +2 AC for -4 to hit with either the attack or full attack actions, the implication is that CE is basically taking a feat to improve the character's ability to fight defensively.

A character without CE can only trade -4 to hit for +2 to AC, a character with CE has more options and can trade anywhere from -1 to -5 to hit for an equal amount to AC. With CE you can choose how to to trade and, in addition, you can trade on a 1 for 1 basis.

If CE is basically just "improved" fighting defensively than it may not be out of line to use in conjuction with elaborate parry.

I have a few ideas on how to do this, basically make the CE trade either 1 to hit for 2 AC or 1 to hit for 1.5 AC (-1 for +1.5, -2 for +3, -3 for +4.5, -4 for +6, etc.).

My question is: has anyone house ruled this and if so how did it work?

pbd

Brain · Jan 3, 2005

That's really stretching there. I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. Things seem quite clear to me that combat expertise is separate from and different than fighting defensively. I don't view those "normal:" entries to be anything more than showing how the feat is cool versus a person without it.

Geoff Watson · Jan 4, 2005

Brain said:
Yes, it stacks, but he isn't asking about stacking in this thread. He wants to gain the elaborate parry bonus just for using expertise and not fighting defensively, or find some other house rule for it.

What's the big deal?
Elaborate Parry is already excellent, there is no need to make it better.

Expertise is only one better than Fighting Defensively (-4 hit/+3 AC) assuming he has Tumble.

Geoff.