Evil clerics "luke you dont know the power of the dark side

Its my beleif that evil clerics are pound for pound more vicous than just about anything! Like a rabid wolverine! That casts spells...Dark Speech, poison,death spells, growing spider legs and that damn sacrifice table that beefs him up to no end, jees! what a monster!

I haven’t played in a successful evil campaign for a long time, several years at least. We would usually end up killing one another. We have now found that LE is the way to go. Yes, were evil yet we have unity. So it’s to no surprise that we are starting from scratch, and in the beginning found are selves somewhat at a loss for info feats etc. We bought the book of vile darkness, and are researching potential evil feats skills powers and spells thru other books as well. Items armors weapons whatever, were looking it all up. We have come up with our own builds. Any hints? Suggestions? greatly appreciated!
Here is what I’ve noticed after playing in the campaign for 2 months now.

The strength of good heroes: The population is on your side and will aid you in time of need. In general places/Inns/businesses/taverns will happily serve you.
The weakness of good heroes: The inability to use deadly poisons, backstab to kill (murder), the use of some evil tainted feats, evil powers and evil spells cannot be used.

The strength of evil villains: You can kill murder rape steal to empower yourself, pretty much without restriction. You can use poison on a arrow to shoot and kill lets say a Paladin, just to rid yourself of a potential enemy in the future. The evil spells can be vicious, some without saves. Our evil fighter likes grabbing weak bystanders, and uses them as a “meat shield,” as he puts it. The enemy is now trying to hit you without harming the innocent, this tactic has proven most entertaining. You aren’t bothered by killing innocents to kill your target; in fact your target may be the innocents.
The weakness of evil villains: Nobody really likes you; you’re basically a jerk to deal with and are prone for problems. Our Cleric of Hextor has marked up his face so evil people like him more? And the rest of society scorns him, even more so. As if walking around proudly boasting your symbols wasn’t enough. He cannot get heal spells such as a good cleric and this is a weakness. We considered giving him cause wounds instead? What do you think of this rule? Is it unjust to the evil clerics?

The BoVD is truly nasty! I have heard many say it was worthless. We have found it most useful for building bad guys. Although some of the art work is disturbing, many of the spells are disturbing-blood rain, corrupting spells, making them vile etc etc

Many players say thieves and fighters are less fun to play in an evil campaign....
To the contraire! Our rogue has gone assassin and loves it. The mage turns him inviso and gives him a true strike. He uses a true strike in unison with his assassin strike and his blade is poisoned. He kills after waiting just 3 rounds with a DC18 fort save, and that’s pretty impressive. Our fighter has an 18 cha and is maxed out in intimidate, bluff, sense motive and diplomacy, he loves to roll play. He is currently having a blast using kids as shields and making the opponents deal with it. The mage wants to get his shield to project an illusion of a halfling or a child pinned to it.

So what is your thought on evil campaigns? Classes, spells, skills, the roll playing aspect? And whats up with evil tools, devices?

*Also have any of you used the npc “the emperor?” from the BoVD? He’s the guy who has a chain of children slaves tide to his waist. Was this guy a night mare or what?

Sir ThornCrest

The logistical problem with the typical evil campaign is that it's hard to maintain a cohesive party, even with lawful evil characters. When everyone is out for his own gain, and is willing to backstab his friends to get it, too often you end up in a Paranoia-style, "every PC for himself" betrayal-fest. (This can be avoided once your players are mature enough to understand that not every evil character is a psychopath.)

For me personally, evil games are okay for a one-shot, but I don't find them as much fun in the long term. I mean, it may be kind of entertaining to blow stuff up without regard for the consequences, but there's no heroic achievement or (usually) any character development. If I were satisfied just by killing stuff and getting treasure, or by the "wow d00d, j00 bl3w up d4 0rph4n4g3, j00r s0 1337" factor, I'd go play Everquest.

As for the idea of PCs using rape to "empower themselves" in the game... I find it depressing that anyone over the age of 13 would consider that entertainment. Only once did I ever have a player state that his character was going to commit rape. I told him to leave the game immediately, and explained that I would break his nose if he ever again tried to join one of my campaigns.

The strength of good heroes: The population is on your side and will aid you in time of need. In general places/Inns/businesses/taverns will happily serve you.

Click to expand...

You forgot: "The majority of the world's leaders, armies, and other heroes are on your side, and are likely to cooperate with you in order to combat a major threat."

In other words, if a band of evil PCs is marauding around the countryside taking hostages and slaying innocent children, they should very shortly have a large number of high-level NPCs on their tails. If that hasn't happened, your DM is asleep at the switch.

You can use poison on a arrow to shoot and kill lets say a Paladin, just to rid yourself of a potential enemy in the future.

Click to expand...

I guess you're fighting 1st-level paladins, then? Enemies in D&D don't just die from one shot, even from a poisoned arrow, especially not if they've got the high Fort save that paladins do. (At least, not if your DM knows what he's doing.)

If your opponents are so weak that they can be easily killed from ambush, and so stupid that they can easily be ambushed in the first place, it sounds like you've got a pretty boring campaign. IMO, no challenge means there's no point to playing. Why not just gain XP for slaughtering defenseless bunnies?

He cannot get heal spells such as a good cleric and this is a weakness. We considered giving him cause wounds instead? What do you think of this rule? Is it unjust to the evil clerics?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Evil clerics already can spontaneously convert spells to inflict wounds, in the same way good clerics can convert to cure wounds. It's not unjust at all, it only means that you're more focussed on "kill my enemies" rather than "keep my friends alive."

If the party has a problem with staying power, invest in some wands of cure critical wounds. Even the rogue can use those if he has some ranks in UMD.

The mage turns him inviso and gives him a true strike.

Click to expand...

Note that this doesn't work. True strike has a range of Personal; the mage can only cast it on himself.

My personal experience with Evil gaming has been so-so, but I'll try to help you out.

I've found having a REALLY big boss figure is improtant, even if he's just kept at the distance. If you are working for the Archamge Necrosus and you betray your comrades you are also betraying Necrosus, which can be very detrimental to your health. Party cohesion improves by leaps and bounds.

I recommend Necromancy: Beyond the Grave for some good necromancy spells and an EXCELLENT feat system. The latter can also be gained online in an improved version, I think by Phillip Reed; look for Necromantic feats. They allow you more uumph in return for "power checks" that result in various curses and side-effects for your character.

I've found the discussion in AEG's Evil interesting, but little more. But it sounds like your fighter might be interested in the Living Shield feat (you know what that means...), and I love the Bootlicker feat (+3 to grovel, beg, and so on). I was inspired by its [Infernal] feats into creating Dark Pact system for characters wanting to strike a deal with the devil, if you're interested you can find it here.

Try to be flexible as a DM: plan for several contringencies, and concentrate on knowing what's going on and why and seeing how that will change base on the PCs actions. Because evil PCs are much more active.

Regarding the basic point, clerics rock, and evil clerics even more so. The inflict spells are of far less use than cure spells (unless you're playing undead), but as others said just stock up on scrolls, potions, and wands. A CLW wand is most efficient money-wise, but not in terms of time-in-combat so you might want to have several options. Fast-Healing also helps. A lot.
Hmmm. That's it.

If the DM has trouble handling your PCs power, he can crack open the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's pretty much a mirror image of the BoVD.

P.S, about the mage and true strike - make potions of true strike. And shield too while you're at it.... though I seem to remember that was not possible for some reason. Too late to think, bye now...

AuraSeer said:

I ... explained that I would break his nose if he ever again tried to join one of my campaigns.

Click to expand...

It's good to know that you showed this fool what mature, responsible behavior is.

RigaMortus said:

And if this somehow hijacks the thread, I apologize and feel free to delete my post.

Click to expand...

Yeah, let's not dwell on rape / murder debates.

Nor any kind of rape debates in the context of this thread, for that matter.
Further... Discussing murder that has an actual reason is okay. Discussing random slaughter for the heck of it, is not.
This goes for everyone. Thanks.

If anyone has any questions or comments, e-mail me.

Well, just one thing... I think, that the spontaneous casting ability of good clerics is a dozen times better than the one of the evil clerics.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

Well, just one thing... I think, that the spontaneous casting ability of good clerics is a dozen times better than the one of the evil clerics.

Click to expand...

Two dozen times IMO.

Unless either the cleric or most of his allies are undead, anyway.

Antiheroes, not villains

Personally, I would find a villains campaign with ruthless, mercenary, random slaughtering to be quite pointless and dull. However, running an *anti-hero* campaign to me is a different story, if the characters have some sort of intrinsic motivation to stay together or a plausible ideology to fight for. Characters like the LE, smite the heathen clerics of Helm and St. Cuthbert to me is more fun to run games for (and to motivate adventures for) than just plain evil characters out to make a buck, since the former have ideological ties to stay together and fight evil. I think a campaign with anti-hero types who went by a mantra of "Evil unto evil", being evil in order to fight against it, might be a fun change of pace from good-aligned games. Dragon 327 had some useful anti-hero archetypes (as well as some good, exalted archetypes as well).

What I have found most successful in any campaign (not just those of the shadier nature) is to have the party be motivated to adventure for intrinsic reasons.

I have run one Evil campaign, and the PC's had a goal. They would beome the Next Lord of Darkness and destroy at least one culture as they attained godhood. Well one of them would have anyway. In this campaign it was a well-worn path, and had happened seven times before in record history. They wer'nt much for the random killings, as they didn't want exposure until they could deal with it. They were masters of the no risk plan. And committed several crimes such as bulgrary, and assisinations which were nearly flawless. No witnesses, no chance of capture, few dice rolls needed - usually in the set up process where even failure was not overly suspicious. Of course one or two characters died in the same fashion, as they made enemies of Necromancers and an Evil Psionist poseing as a druid.
In Fact this campaign spawned my avatar....
I was going to come out against evil games but this one was a lot of fun. At least 1/2 of their quests were the kind hero's would undertake, and for nearly the same reasons. (Cash, Magic Loot, Poltical Capital, Practice)
They just had a greater level of ruthlessness than heros.

My only comment is if you have LE PCs, it's best if they work for an LE group, especially an LE god of say Tyranny...