Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I would like to state my gratitude at all the posts above.
It is really good to game with you guys, and with you, Zelda (you aren't a guy, of course!
)
I really appreciate the support.
I will make a final decision tomorrow, and I'm intently reading everything you post.
It is really good to hear from you again, Phasmus.
It's like an old friend coming calling after a long separation.
Everyone should go back and see Phasmus's posts.
He and Forrester really went after each early in the first IR! (It's only 3 threads. It's actually readable!)
Heh. If it hadn't been for the elves diverting Forrester's attention, I do believe Phasmus and Forrester would have obliterated each other.
Of course, the elves did attract Forrester's attention, and did throw Karsus's Avatar, and ... well ... the result of all that understates the old saying: Out of sight, out of mind!
It's good to be playing with all of you.
I suppose Darkness will never forgive my tantrum, but I say he was a great player and a friend, and I miss him.
I miss all of you who left the IR. I really enjoyed playing with you guys.
- - -
(the following is meant as light humor, for all of you, my friends. )
This isn't happening, you know.
This is all a dream.
You all died back on Turn 6, when the Elder Ones came.
The Elder Ones ate you all for dinner (after your minds melted from just seeing them), then they unravelled all of Reality, ending all time and space!
Oh, sorry Phasmus, Anabstercorian - they didn't kill the illithid.
They saved the illithid (NOT the NeoIllithid) and made them all into their lowest slaves.
So you see, there never was a Turn 7.
You all simply imagined it all.
You aren't really seeing all those threads on the boards - those are only figments of your imagination.
You couldn't possibly be seeing those threads! You couldn't because they weren't written because the Elder Ones ate everyone!
Now, you might ask, why did the Elder Ones eat everyone?
Well, because Uvenelei's Groundpounders didn't work on Turn 6, that's why not!
But don't take it from me. I ruled the Groundpounders worked.
I went to Rules, and asked THEM if the Groundpounders would work.
And here is what they had to say (heh, I found my post on page 22 of Rules, and copied it all.)
- - -
Edena_of_Neith
Would this work?
Would this work?
It is not every day that a player figures out how to use 9th level magic to destroy an entire Crystal Sphere.
You are aware of the Gate spell, are you not?
You are aware that Gate allows you to travel from Here to There, right?
Some mages created a reasonable (and apparently useless) variant of the Gate spell that causes you to go from Here to ... Here.
A Gate can be made permanent
A large Gate that allows regular traffic requires 10th level magic to do this.
However, a tiny Gate that could take only a small - say, one inch in diameter - ball of steel could be made permanent with the Permanency spell.
Now, imagine throwing this Gate upon a flat disc of steel.
Making the little Gate permanently.
Since the flat disc of steel can be moved, so can the Gate.
Now, imagine two such flat discs of steel, each with a Gate cast on them, and permanency.
Take the two plates, and suspend them in midair.
Make sure the Gates are facing each other.
Create a glass jar around the whole thing, and thus you have created a magical item, and the jar - and the two plates inside - can be moved about at will.
The plates will stay perfectly aligned, the two Gates facing each other.
Now imagine you used technology or magic to suck all the air out of this glass jar, thus creating a vacuum.
If you had thrown a steel ball into one of the Gates (in this case teleporting one into the jar, then moving it with telekinesis into one of the Gates), you would find that:
The steel ball would enter the Gate, then exit the Gate.
The steel ball would move across the vacuum to the other Gate, then exit the other Gate.
The steel ball would move back to the first Gate, then exit the first Gate.
The steel ball would move to the second Gate again, enter, and exit.
Now, Gates do have height and width, so here's the real trick of it all.
You cast Reverse Gravity on the glass, twice.
You then cast Permanency on the glass, twice.
You make it so that a perfect plane exists, bisecting the two Gates exactly in the middle, with gravity polarized on either side of this plane.
Now see what happens.
You teleport a one inch in diameter steel ball into the glass.
It falls, at normal acceleration, into the first Gate.
It exits that Gate on the OTHER side of the polarized gravity field, and falls upward, at 1x acceleration, into the other Gate.
It exits that Gate back on the original side of the polarized gravity field, and falls downward, at 1x acceleration, into the original Gate.
A nice trick. The ball falls faster, faster, and faster.
Now, Reverse Gravity is only a 7th level spell.
If a 7th level spell can negate gravity, there is no question that 7th level magic could alter gravity over a specific area, to a specific extent.
This effect, could be made permanent.
8th level magic could alter gravity much more, over an even greater area.
9th level magic could alter gravity much more yet, over an even greater area yet.
Or, alter gravity very greatly, over a tiny area.
And this, too, can be made permanent.
In this case, 9th level magic can produce a gravity field 1000 times greater than normal.
Now, you make both gravity fields in the glass jar 1000 times normal (obviously, the glass must be glassteeled to hope to survive the pressures on it.)
Now, go back and see what happens.
The little one inch steel ball, accelerates, not at one gravity, but at one thousand gravities.
In a matter of only 3 days, it reaches the speed of light.
Or, rather, it approaches the speed of light, for that speed cannot be attained by any object with mass.
As the steel ball approaches the speed of light, it's mass grows greater.
And greater.
And greater.
To the mass of a boulder.
To the mass of a hill.
To the mass of a mountain.
To the mass of a world.
To the mass, of a star.
Then, carefully prepared Contingency spells go off, and one of the Gates is dispelled.
The ball, no longer travels from Gate to Gate.
The ball, travels through the glass.
With whatever mass it has achieved, it slams into whatever is unfortunate enough, be it a person or a planet, to be in it's way.
Would the above, work?
- - -
reapersaurus
in basic form, this has been gone over a few times before, and the basic problem is:
Magic is not science, and science doesn't necessarily work like magic.
To break down magic into predictable components and results like this assumes MANY times over in this example is one of the main problems that people have with 3E's magic system.
And on second thought, isn't there a law of conservation or somesuch that dicates that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so that if the speed of the object gets greater, due to the equation E=mC^2, wouldn't the mass be getting smaller and smaller as the object neareed the speed of light?
- - -
Uvenelei
Of course it would work.
- - -
Umbran
You tell me. You're the one making the suppositions on what magic can and cannot do - allowing the enhanced Reverse Gravity, for instance. You're also the one saying that Relativity physics works alongside magic. You're the one making the stipulations, not us
If you are asking - would I allow this particular set of house rules to work, I'd say No. There is nothing in the description of the Gate spell that suggests it can be cast on an item to be mobile.
Within your own framework - glassteel or not, the whole device will collapse somewhere before the ball has the mass of a small moon. By tidal forces, if nothing else. In fact, I'd suspect that such a dense, small mass would disrupt the gravity-warping magics, breaking the item.
- - -
Uvenelei
It doesn't have to be the spell Gate - there's an item in the DMG, Ring Gates, that function exactly like this.
quote:
Within your own framework - glassteel or not, the whole device will collapse somewhere before the ball has the mass of a small moon. By tidal forces, if nothing else. In fact, I'd suspect that such a dense, small mass would disrupt the gravity-warping magics, breaking the item.
Before the ball starts to go that fast - fast enough to have a noticable increase in it's mass - it will still be fast enough to deal hideous damage to anything it hits. Destroying a Crystal Sphere may be an overstatement, but seriously damaging a planet isn't.
- - -
Umbran
Actually, the damage it might do to a planet may be negligible.
Let's get one thing straight - even "dinosaur killer" impacts don't really damage the planet.
They damage the ecosphere. We, living on the surface, don't like all the dust and rain, but to the planet as a whole, it's generally akin to a bit of a ding in the skin of an apple.
So, what happens when this ball-bearing mountain hits the surface of a planet? Probably nothing.
Think - it's the mass of a mountain, with a huge density and speed. It passes right through the surface like it was butter. Normal dirt and rock don't stop it. It continues on into the mantle, and quietly disappears - the amount of energy it deposits is probably negligible compared to the heat energy already present in the molten core of a planet.
So, you have a weapon that will take the head off any living target - but you can do that with a non-magic axe. You don't kill a planet with a ball bearing
- - -
The Iron Mark
On a thread in House Rules we came up with a weapon quite like this. Instead, you have a box. You teleport all the air out of it. Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any object to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in. Wait a while.
Contingency to teleport yourself to safety when you cast Dispel Magic. Cast Dispel magic on the box. The guy who made this claimed it caused temperatures hot enough to cause oxygen fusion. I nicknamed it the Oxynuke, after Oxyclean .
- - -
hong
Edena's haikus
Are too long! Four-teen syllables, please.
As to whether it would work, that's contingent on whether things like general relativity work like they do in the real world. That's something up to the DM, and not directly addressed in the rules.
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by The Iron Mark
Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any objsct to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in.
Major flaw - the description of Teleportation Circle says, "You create a circle...that teleports, as teleport without error, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot."
For this to work, you cannot use stone. You need a creature that can survive in vacuum.
- - -
The Iron Mark
Good one. I never bothered to see if it would really work. I just said someone had proposed that design. I assume you all are familiar with the Laser Sphere correct?
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by The Iron Mark
On a thread in House Rules we came up with a weapon quite like this.
Instead, you have abox. You teleport all the air out of it. Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any objsct to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in. Wait a while. Contingency to teleport yourself to safety when you cast Dispel Magic. Cast Dispel magic on the box. The guy who made this claimed it caused temperatures hot enough to cause oxygen fusion. I nicknamed it the Oxynuke, after Oxyclean .
The dispel magic would dispel the teleportation circle. Other than that, is anything fancy supposed to happen?
- - -
Umbran
Originally posted by reapersaurus
And on second thought, isn't there a law of conservation or somesuch that dicates that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so that if the speed of the object gets greater, due to the equation E=mC^2, wouldn't the mass be getting smaller and smaller as the object neareed the speed of light?
The idea that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed only holds for closed systems.
This is not a closed system. The object takes energy from the (magically generated) gravity fields.
However, this does suggest something...
There is a limit on what a spell of a given level can do - DMG, pg 95. 1st level spells cap out at 5 dice of damage to any particular target. They simply don't provide enough energy to do more. 9th Level spells cap out at 25 dice. And that's in normal damage dice - d4s, d6s, or d8s!
So, what happens? That Reverse Gravity, permanent or not, simply cannot accelerate the ball forever. It can only provide so much gravitational energy. After it gives up enough energy so that the creature struck by the ball takes 25 dice of damage, the ball cannot be accelerated further. Beyond that, the spell is simply tapped out.
So, you have created an expensive bazooka, but not a planet buster
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by hong
The dispel magic would dispel the teleportation circle. Other than that, is anything fancy supposed to happen?
The idea was that you put the rick in, it falls, hits the circle, gets teleported to the top, falls again, etc. Each fall speeds up the brick. One supposes that if allowed to run, the speed of the brick will approach the speed of light, and it will be very destructive when it hits the ground.... As I noted, though, it won't work with a brick.
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Umbran
The idea was that you put the rick in, it falls, hits the circle, gets teleported to the top, falls again, etc. Each fall speeds up the brick. One supposes that if allowed to run, the speed of the brick will approach the speed of light, and it will be very destructive when it hits the ground.... As I noted, though, it won't work with a brick.
It's an open question whether momentum is conserved during a teleport; regardless, the guy who came up with this idea was certainly guilty of violating Hong's Third Law....
- - -
Broken Fang
I don't have my PHB handy so someone might be able to look this up...do you retain your current velocity when you teleport/gate? If not than the brick would just keep falling at the same rate until the gate was broken...no increasing speed near the speed of light.
- - -
CRGreathouse
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Fang
I don't have my PHB handy so someone might be able to look this up...do you retain your current velocity when you teleport/gate?
It doesn't say. The rationalization that it does not has been used many times to defeat this "trick".
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by CRGreathouse
It doesn't say. The rationalization that it does not has been used many times to defeat this "trick".
Interesting. Ring Gates, in the DMG, specificaly allow for conserved momentum - you can make physical attacks through the gates. However, the Ring Gate has a weight allowance - no using them for relativistic masses. Probably coincidence, but not a bad one, in this case.
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Rune
You're missing the obvious problem. It's not physically possible for the steel ball to go through a gate that goes from "here" to "here". This is because the ball will be pushing against itself the moment it tries to go through the gate--that is to say, if the ball could go through the gate, part of it would be coming out while the rest is going in, but, because the part coming out is in the same place as the part going in, it simply isn't happening in the first place. Any solid object that tries to go through the gate will appear to reflect off of the gate instead. Actually, it will be reflecting off of itself.
- - -
MythandLore
Would this work?
No.
You are aware of the Gate spell, are you not?
Yes.
You are aware that Gate allows you to travel from Here to There, right?
Yes.
Some mages created a reasonable (and apparently useless) variant of the Gate spell that causes you to go from Here to ... Here.
Okay.
A Gate can be made permanent.
No.
There is no point in going further.
A 'Gate' is an 'Instantaneous' spell, it cannot be effected by 'permanency' or duration extending 'meta-magic' feats.
A 'Cubic Gate' item comes close to what you are trying to do but still can't.
It has a 10% chance of something passing thru every round it is open, you couldn't leave it open for 3 days an average of 4,320 creatures would pass thru in that time.
The amount of times the object could pass thru a 'Ring Gate' is very limited by weight per day, so would not really work ether.
Even thee 'Portals' from the FRCS book (which act like perminent gates) would not work.
It has many rules which could be interprted to work with the spell 'Gate' inculding unattended objects (like throwing a rock) can't go thru on there own.
If you have the FRCS book I sugjest you look over the section on 'Portals' p59 and see what you think.
I myself would never allow what you are proposing.
Also if you take into account 'real science' after it gets too fast it will start to burn up do to friction of air etc.
If you were to fire a one pound ball of steel from space regardless of the speed, it will burn up before it gets to the ground.
Bottom line, don't waste anymore of your time on this sillyness.
- - -
reapersaurus
quote:
Originally posted by MythandLore
Bottom line, don't waste anymore of your time on this sillyness.
You don't understand - this kind of 'sillyness' is exactly the wine and song of what the IR is all about!
Umbran - good call - I was going to point out that bit about teleportation.
It's amazing how many people still believe that teleportation affects non-creatures.
- - -
ConcreteBuddha
However, a tiny Gate that could take only a small - say, one inch in diameter - ball of steel could be made permanent with the Permanency spell.
Now, imagine throwing this Gate upon a flat disc of steel.
Making the little Gate permanently.
Now, imagine two such flat discs of steel, each with a Gate cast on them, and permanency.
You cast Reverse Gravity on the glass, twice.
You then cast Permanency on the glass, twice.
Now, Reverse Gravity is only a 7th level spell.
If a 7th level spell can negate gravity, there is no question that 7th level magic could alter gravity over a specific area, to a specific extent.
This effect, could be made permanent.
9th level magic could alter gravity much more yet, over an even greater area yet.
Or, alter gravity very greatly, over a tiny area.
And this, too, can be made permanent.
Would the above, work?
That's a lot o' Permanency spells there, buster...
The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent... If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. PHB pg. 234
The spells you stated as being made permanent are not on the list on page 234.
If your DM is a pushover and allows you to Permanency every spell in the book, then yes, the above would work.
However, may I suggest a better alternative?
Permanent Summon Monster IX
Infinite numbers of outsiders who do your every command. That's kinda neat. And you don't have to go destroying innocent little crystal spheres...
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by reapersaurus
Umbran - good call - I was going to point out that bit about teleportation.
It's amazing how many people still believe that teleportation affects non-creatures.
You know I'm tired when I miss soemthing even more obvious - Teleport (and, by extension Teleport without Error and Teleportation Circle) has a weight limit. Even if you did use a non-creature version somehow, the spell will not support large relativistic masses. Without going into Epic rules, the spell will only support about half a ton.
That will limit the teleportation-trick damage - a half ton mass, moving at about the speed of light will profide enough energy to... turn a block of ice roughly 350 feet on a side into steam. This will vaporize soft targets (including the tarrasque or kaiju, though the tarrasque will regenerate), and devastate individual buildings or city blocks. But you probably won't level cities, much less kill planets. Nice for clearing your sea-lanes of icebergs, though.
- - -
Umbran
Oh, I forgot something else. Edena's device is not portable. It cannot be "moved about at will". I think Edena did not read the description of Reverse Gravity closely enough.
For one thing, Reverse gravity will only make things fall up, not in any old direction. The device will function only when the gates are perfectly aligned along the local up/down line, or the ball will wander off the path, and the device will fail, possibly violently.
Reverse Gravity accelerates the ball up. What happens when you set off the device? What does the ball hit? All the ball's momentum is upwards. The ball flashes into the sky at the speed of light, far exceeding a planet's escape velocity. Based upon Reverse Gravity, the thing can't actually target any object that isn't directly overhead. If you want to break a hole in a crystal sphere, this might be useful. But it won't hurt anything on the planet.
Let's say that Edena's wizard creates the spell "Generate Gravity" instead. He can arrange so that the field accelerates the ball from one gate to another, no matter the orientation of the gates.
What happens if you start this mechanism and the ball's path is horizontal (or anything other than perfectly vertical)? Well, the local planet's gravity still pulls the ball down. Again, the ball quickly deviates from the prescribed path, and the device fails.
Let's say the spell negates local gravity, so we don't have to worry about that deviation.
What happens when anyone rotates, or moves the device along a line other than the ball's motion? The relativistic ball has a heck of a lot of momentum. The device moves sideways, and the ball doesn't. Again, it fails. The thing cannot be moved after the ball begins to accelerate.
- - -
Gaiden
Gaiden says: finally someone has figured out how to make a DND nuke.
Seriously though, if any character wanted to ever even come up with this idea I would rule they would have to have the skill knowledge (physics) or some such knowledge that is relevant and set the DC for the check to even come up with this idea to something like 80. I say that because that check is not wholly impossible. 20th level character has 23 ranks, with item that can give up to +40 on any skill, with intelligence enhancers, something like this would be conceivable.
Moreover, such a thing is so powerful, that it would attract the attention of the GODS! Beware mortal wizard, for you tamper with things beyond your control. I mean, holy shiz, I would imagine that such an item, could even rip a black whole in space. You could destroy whole universes. If that does not get the gods' attentions I don't know what would.
Ultimately, I say allow it, if you are going to go with the logic of enhancing the spells the way you mentioned, and treat it like nuclear warfare - because it is so dangerous, no one, not even the GODs want to unleash that kind of power.
- - -
Zhure
20th level Sorcerer. Needs Craft Wand and to know Forcecage* and Shrink Item**. Make Shrink Item Wand. Optional: Ring of Sustenance; Teleport; Stone Shape.
Make several Wands of Shrink Item. Arrange for boulders cut into cubes of 40 cubic feet. Stone shape would be helpful here if you want to be completely self-sufficient.
Begin using the Wand to Shrink one boulder per round to 1/2000th of it's volume. Each boulder takes up .02 cubic feet. Create 50,000 of these shrunken boulders, which takes 83 1/3 hours, or about 3 1/2 days. This is where the Ring of Sustenance comes into play, so you can cast straight through without resting.
You'd of course need 1,000 wands of at least 4th level, which is prohibitively expensive, but this is just a thought exercise. (1,000x4x3x750 = 5,250,000 gp.)
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
The entire mass of 50,000 boulders will expand to it's original volume of 2,000,000 cubic
feet, but it is compressed to a volume of 1,000 cubic feet, because the force cage isn't susceptible to non-magical damage.
The forcecage will last for 40 hours, which should give you enough time to make an escape, as the density of this "device" will be staggering. (This is where Teleport is useful.)
I leave it to the physics experts to figure out what would happen.
Realize of course that this is magic, so normal physics may not apply, but I think this is more doable than the reverse gravity/teleport jink.
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Zhure
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
The entire mass of 50,000 boulders will expand to it's original volume of 2,000,000 cubic feet, but it is compressed to a volume of 1,000 cubic feet, because the force cage isn't susceptible to non-magical damage.
Sounds like some horrific Acme device made to torment Wile E. Coyote.
- - -
Magus_Jerel
save yourself the 5 mil -
take shrink item as an innate spell if possible...
Place boulders into expendable container -
Cast fly spell
Cast Teleport on expendable container and yourself
Cast levitate on expendable container- then back away as far as possible.
cast dispel magic...
Watch bunch of boulders expand and fall down on target below.
- - -
chilibean
The theory of relativity has no place in a fantasy setting with magic.
For those that wish to think up devastating weapons from bizarre combos of D&D magic and real physics, make a gate that unattended objects can pass through freely, but not gravity.
Then simply open it to the center of a blackhole or a neutron star. The infintely small black hole would simply pass through the gate and consume the entire world and surrounding solar system. The neutron star would create an explosion of almost incalculable power (depends on the size and duration of the gate).
Suppose that you time/space warp exactly 1 second into the past to a distance 1 light second away rotated 180 degrees around. The light bouncing off of you would exactly reach "yourself" at the moment you warped. Then, it would warp back with you, and travel to hit yourself again. And again. And again. So the same photon traveled the same distance an infinite number of times. An outside observer would thus see a beam of infinite photos (& thus infinite power) suddenly appear between 2 points 186 thousand miles apart. Since infinite energy has infinite mass and thus infinite gravity, the entire universe collapses onto the beam destroying the universe. Sounds like something Raistlin would do ...
- - -
sepulchrave
3 Troll Points, Edena.
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by Zhure
You'd of course need 1,000 wands of at least 4th level, which is prohibitively expensive, but this is just a thought exercise. (1,000x4x3x750 = 5,250,000 gp.)
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
[...snip...]
Realize of course that this is magic, so normal physics may not apply, but I think this is more doable than the reverse gravity/teleport jink.
More doable?
Let's look at crafting the wands...
Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell. Wand base price is 11,250 gp. That's 11.25 days per wand. Money aside, it takes 30 years to craft the wands. Even if we only use 100 wands, that's 3 years of labor.
Not to mention the effort in getting the boulders in the first place... I hardly think this winds up being more doable, due to the background labor invovled.
Plus, the DM is within all rights to say that speaking the command word once will free up one boulder, rather than all of them...
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Umbran
Not to mention the effort in getting the boulders in the first place...
Not a problem; see the "beating on walls" thread.
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Cl1mh4224rd
totally off-topic: about special relativity
someone made the statement that mass decreases with velocity. this is in fact, the opposite.
an object approaching the speed of light "gains" mass. at the speed of light, this object (any object in fact, from a feather to a brick) has infinite mass and would require an infinite amount of energy to maintain that speed.
if objects "lost" mass the faster they moved, we'd already be travelling the universe at the speed of light.
besides, adena... i don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but...
quote:
The steel ball would enter the Gate, then exit the Gate.
The steel ball would move across the vacuum to the other Gate, then exit the other Gate.
The steel ball would move back to the first Gate, then exit the first Gate.
The steel ball would move to the second Gate again, enter, and exit.
[snip]
You teleport a one inch in diameter steel ball into the glass.
It falls, at normal acceleration, into the first Gate.
It exits that Gate on the OTHER side of the polarized gravity field, and falls upward, at 1x acceleration, into the other Gate.
It exits that Gate back on the original side of the polarized gravity field, and falls downward, at 1x acceleration, into the original Gate.
A nice trick. The ball falls faster, faster, and faster.
the second quoted paragraph contradicts the effect that you established in the first quoted paragraph. unless you're assuming that the reverse gravity also extends through the gate. i really don't think that's the case (my opinion of course, but others would agree i'm sure).
by the desription, this does sound like it would be a closed system. there is no other outside force being applied to the ball after the telekinesis. in that case, this is what would happen:
- the ball "falls" toward one of the gates, enters the gate, and immediately exits that same gate, heading the opposite direction.
- the reverse gravity is still in effect, pulling the ball back toward the first gate.
- assuming a vacuum, the ball loses any and all velocity it gained from the reverse gravity at the exact same point it began it's "decent".
a net gain of zero. the ball will never exceed a certain velocity. no mass driver for you!
if if if if for some reason, the ball actually did continue to accelerate, it would have to eventually absorb all available energy in the universe. all matter would have to be converted into energy, including the ball itself. of course, since there is no object available to accelerate anymore, things might get a little weird. another big bang, maybe? whatever happens, it'll generally mean the destruction of the universe as we know it. your target suddenly becomes inconsequential.
- - -
Xahn'Tyr
If I recall correctly, falling damage in 3rd Ed is 1d6 per 10 ft fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.
This proves that accelleration due to gravity is linear in D&D world, with a rather low terminal velocity. Note also that there is no rule that lifts the 20d6 limit in a vaccum; so (in D&D land) this terminal velocity is not dependent on air friction. With these deduced laws of physics, you ball bearing would linearly accellerate to a speed such that it could inflict 20d6 of damage and then it would stop accellerating. Not really worth the effort.
If you wish to apply real world physics, then you are need a different game system (or a lot of house rules).
- - -
jontherev
Re: totally off-topic: about special relativity
quote:
Originally posted by Cl1mh4224rd
someone made the statement that mass decreases with velocity. this is in fact, the opposite.
an object approaching the speed of light "gains" mass. at the speed of light, this object (any object in fact, from a feather to a brick) has infinite mass and would require an infinite amount of energy to maintain that speed.
if objects "lost" mass the faster they moved, we'd already be travelling the universe at the speed of light.
besides, adena... i don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but...
C'mon guys this is so elementary. Haven't you seen the movie K-Pax? It's all spelled out in there.
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by Xahn'Tyr
If I recall correctly, falling damage in 3rd Ed is 1d6 per 10 ft fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. This proves that accelleration due to gravity is linear in D&D world, with a rather low terminal velocity.
No, it doesn't. That rule says that damage scales linearly with the distance fallen. The 20 die cap probably has nothing to do with terminal velocity. It may instead be saying that beyond a certain sspeed, the effects on the character really don't change. Hitting the ground at 150 mph is very much like hitting the ground at 200 mph.
Even in the real world, you shouldn't make the simple assumption that damage should scale linearly with speed. In a heroic fanatasy, not only can you not do that, but you cannot even say that damage has all that much to do with physics.
- - -
Savage Wombat
Credit where credit is due...
I just thought people should know that this is an idea originally published by Larry Niven, in his article about the Theory and Practice of Teleportation.
(His article on Time Travel is good, too - but the really good one is "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" and the inherent difficulties in Kryptonian reproduction - "Look out! Supersonic spermatazoa!")
Personally, I think the falling damage cap is a pretty good argument against unlimited gravitic acceleration in D&D. Furthermore, it's pretty clear that light and light-speed don't work in D&D as they would in a purely scientific universe, considering the nature of range and area of effect in D&D spells.
Do ring gates have a weight limit? If the object becomes too massive, it might not go through the gate anymore. This would certainly be the case in GURPS and Hero System - the extra time needed to pass the mass would defeat the cycle.
Beware of words like "instantly" when designing a game system. Infinites always cause this kind of problem.
- - -
Caliban
And in addition to all the other reasons it wouldn't work:
The steel ball would have to have a perfectly straight trajectory. Any deviation, no matter how small, would cause it to impact the side of the gate after enough trips through the circuit. This would either destroy the Ring Gate (if it's going fast enough), or just caust it to bounce around the interior until it shatters the glassteal jar or runs out of momentum.
- - -
ANSWER:
You see, folks?
The Groundpounders failed.
The Elder Ones ate your brains, then bodies, then they ate Oerth.
Then they ate Toril, Krynn, Athas, Mystara, all the moons, the stars, the Crystal Spheres.
Then they ate the Deities.
The Elder One's feelings were terribly hurt because they were attacked by such a nasty and unreasonable thing as Groundpounders.
The Elder Ones feel much better now, are happy again.
They are cheering, vindicated at last, the Groundpounder Case thrown out of Court.
There really IS Justice in the Multiverse, say the Elder Ones.
It is really good to game with you guys, and with you, Zelda (you aren't a guy, of course!
)I really appreciate the support.
I will make a final decision tomorrow, and I'm intently reading everything you post.
It is really good to hear from you again, Phasmus.
It's like an old friend coming calling after a long separation.
Everyone should go back and see Phasmus's posts.
He and Forrester really went after each early in the first IR! (It's only 3 threads. It's actually readable!)
Heh. If it hadn't been for the elves diverting Forrester's attention, I do believe Phasmus and Forrester would have obliterated each other.
Of course, the elves did attract Forrester's attention, and did throw Karsus's Avatar, and ... well ... the result of all that understates the old saying: Out of sight, out of mind!
It's good to be playing with all of you.
I suppose Darkness will never forgive my tantrum, but I say he was a great player and a friend, and I miss him.
I miss all of you who left the IR. I really enjoyed playing with you guys.
- - -
(the following is meant as light humor, for all of you, my friends.
)This isn't happening, you know.
This is all a dream.
You all died back on Turn 6, when the Elder Ones came.
The Elder Ones ate you all for dinner (after your minds melted from just seeing them), then they unravelled all of Reality, ending all time and space!
Oh, sorry Phasmus, Anabstercorian - they didn't kill the illithid.
They saved the illithid (NOT the NeoIllithid) and made them all into their lowest slaves.
So you see, there never was a Turn 7.
You all simply imagined it all.
You aren't really seeing all those threads on the boards - those are only figments of your imagination.
You couldn't possibly be seeing those threads! You couldn't because they weren't written because the Elder Ones ate everyone!
Now, you might ask, why did the Elder Ones eat everyone?
Well, because Uvenelei's Groundpounders didn't work on Turn 6, that's why not!
But don't take it from me. I ruled the Groundpounders worked.
I went to Rules, and asked THEM if the Groundpounders would work.
And here is what they had to say (heh, I found my post on page 22 of Rules, and copied it all.)
- - -
Edena_of_Neith
Would this work?
Would this work?
It is not every day that a player figures out how to use 9th level magic to destroy an entire Crystal Sphere.
You are aware of the Gate spell, are you not?
You are aware that Gate allows you to travel from Here to There, right?
Some mages created a reasonable (and apparently useless) variant of the Gate spell that causes you to go from Here to ... Here.
A Gate can be made permanent
A large Gate that allows regular traffic requires 10th level magic to do this.
However, a tiny Gate that could take only a small - say, one inch in diameter - ball of steel could be made permanent with the Permanency spell.
Now, imagine throwing this Gate upon a flat disc of steel.
Making the little Gate permanently.
Since the flat disc of steel can be moved, so can the Gate.
Now, imagine two such flat discs of steel, each with a Gate cast on them, and permanency.
Take the two plates, and suspend them in midair.
Make sure the Gates are facing each other.
Create a glass jar around the whole thing, and thus you have created a magical item, and the jar - and the two plates inside - can be moved about at will.
The plates will stay perfectly aligned, the two Gates facing each other.
Now imagine you used technology or magic to suck all the air out of this glass jar, thus creating a vacuum.
If you had thrown a steel ball into one of the Gates (in this case teleporting one into the jar, then moving it with telekinesis into one of the Gates), you would find that:
The steel ball would enter the Gate, then exit the Gate.
The steel ball would move across the vacuum to the other Gate, then exit the other Gate.
The steel ball would move back to the first Gate, then exit the first Gate.
The steel ball would move to the second Gate again, enter, and exit.
Now, Gates do have height and width, so here's the real trick of it all.
You cast Reverse Gravity on the glass, twice.
You then cast Permanency on the glass, twice.
You make it so that a perfect plane exists, bisecting the two Gates exactly in the middle, with gravity polarized on either side of this plane.
Now see what happens.
You teleport a one inch in diameter steel ball into the glass.
It falls, at normal acceleration, into the first Gate.
It exits that Gate on the OTHER side of the polarized gravity field, and falls upward, at 1x acceleration, into the other Gate.
It exits that Gate back on the original side of the polarized gravity field, and falls downward, at 1x acceleration, into the original Gate.
A nice trick. The ball falls faster, faster, and faster.
Now, Reverse Gravity is only a 7th level spell.
If a 7th level spell can negate gravity, there is no question that 7th level magic could alter gravity over a specific area, to a specific extent.
This effect, could be made permanent.
8th level magic could alter gravity much more, over an even greater area.
9th level magic could alter gravity much more yet, over an even greater area yet.
Or, alter gravity very greatly, over a tiny area.
And this, too, can be made permanent.
In this case, 9th level magic can produce a gravity field 1000 times greater than normal.
Now, you make both gravity fields in the glass jar 1000 times normal (obviously, the glass must be glassteeled to hope to survive the pressures on it.)
Now, go back and see what happens.
The little one inch steel ball, accelerates, not at one gravity, but at one thousand gravities.
In a matter of only 3 days, it reaches the speed of light.
Or, rather, it approaches the speed of light, for that speed cannot be attained by any object with mass.
As the steel ball approaches the speed of light, it's mass grows greater.
And greater.
And greater.
To the mass of a boulder.
To the mass of a hill.
To the mass of a mountain.
To the mass of a world.
To the mass, of a star.
Then, carefully prepared Contingency spells go off, and one of the Gates is dispelled.
The ball, no longer travels from Gate to Gate.
The ball, travels through the glass.
With whatever mass it has achieved, it slams into whatever is unfortunate enough, be it a person or a planet, to be in it's way.
Would the above, work?
- - -
reapersaurus
in basic form, this has been gone over a few times before, and the basic problem is:
Magic is not science, and science doesn't necessarily work like magic.
To break down magic into predictable components and results like this assumes MANY times over in this example is one of the main problems that people have with 3E's magic system.
And on second thought, isn't there a law of conservation or somesuch that dicates that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so that if the speed of the object gets greater, due to the equation E=mC^2, wouldn't the mass be getting smaller and smaller as the object neareed the speed of light?
- - -
Uvenelei
Of course it would work.
- - -
Umbran
You tell me. You're the one making the suppositions on what magic can and cannot do - allowing the enhanced Reverse Gravity, for instance. You're also the one saying that Relativity physics works alongside magic. You're the one making the stipulations, not us
If you are asking - would I allow this particular set of house rules to work, I'd say No. There is nothing in the description of the Gate spell that suggests it can be cast on an item to be mobile.
Within your own framework - glassteel or not, the whole device will collapse somewhere before the ball has the mass of a small moon. By tidal forces, if nothing else. In fact, I'd suspect that such a dense, small mass would disrupt the gravity-warping magics, breaking the item.
- - -
Uvenelei
It doesn't have to be the spell Gate - there's an item in the DMG, Ring Gates, that function exactly like this.
quote:
Within your own framework - glassteel or not, the whole device will collapse somewhere before the ball has the mass of a small moon. By tidal forces, if nothing else. In fact, I'd suspect that such a dense, small mass would disrupt the gravity-warping magics, breaking the item.
Before the ball starts to go that fast - fast enough to have a noticable increase in it's mass - it will still be fast enough to deal hideous damage to anything it hits. Destroying a Crystal Sphere may be an overstatement, but seriously damaging a planet isn't.
- - -
Umbran
Actually, the damage it might do to a planet may be negligible.
Let's get one thing straight - even "dinosaur killer" impacts don't really damage the planet.
They damage the ecosphere. We, living on the surface, don't like all the dust and rain, but to the planet as a whole, it's generally akin to a bit of a ding in the skin of an apple.
So, what happens when this ball-bearing mountain hits the surface of a planet? Probably nothing.
Think - it's the mass of a mountain, with a huge density and speed. It passes right through the surface like it was butter. Normal dirt and rock don't stop it. It continues on into the mantle, and quietly disappears - the amount of energy it deposits is probably negligible compared to the heat energy already present in the molten core of a planet.
So, you have a weapon that will take the head off any living target - but you can do that with a non-magic axe. You don't kill a planet with a ball bearing
- - -
The Iron Mark
On a thread in House Rules we came up with a weapon quite like this. Instead, you have a box. You teleport all the air out of it. Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any object to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in. Wait a while.
Contingency to teleport yourself to safety when you cast Dispel Magic. Cast Dispel magic on the box. The guy who made this claimed it caused temperatures hot enough to cause oxygen fusion. I nicknamed it the Oxynuke, after Oxyclean .
- - -
hong
Edena's haikus
Are too long! Four-teen syllables, please.
As to whether it would work, that's contingent on whether things like general relativity work like they do in the real world. That's something up to the DM, and not directly addressed in the rules.
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by The Iron Mark
Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any objsct to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in.
Major flaw - the description of Teleportation Circle says, "You create a circle...that teleports, as teleport without error, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot."
For this to work, you cannot use stone. You need a creature that can survive in vacuum.
- - -
The Iron Mark
Good one. I never bothered to see if it would really work. I just said someone had proposed that design. I assume you all are familiar with the Laser Sphere correct?
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by The Iron Mark
On a thread in House Rules we came up with a weapon quite like this.
Instead, you have abox. You teleport all the air out of it. Then a Permanent Teleportation Circle is made to teleport any objsct to a little below the top of the box. Put stone brick in. Wait a while. Contingency to teleport yourself to safety when you cast Dispel Magic. Cast Dispel magic on the box. The guy who made this claimed it caused temperatures hot enough to cause oxygen fusion. I nicknamed it the Oxynuke, after Oxyclean .
The dispel magic would dispel the teleportation circle. Other than that, is anything fancy supposed to happen?
- - -
Umbran
Originally posted by reapersaurus
And on second thought, isn't there a law of conservation or somesuch that dicates that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so that if the speed of the object gets greater, due to the equation E=mC^2, wouldn't the mass be getting smaller and smaller as the object neareed the speed of light?
The idea that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed only holds for closed systems.
This is not a closed system. The object takes energy from the (magically generated) gravity fields.
However, this does suggest something...
There is a limit on what a spell of a given level can do - DMG, pg 95. 1st level spells cap out at 5 dice of damage to any particular target. They simply don't provide enough energy to do more. 9th Level spells cap out at 25 dice. And that's in normal damage dice - d4s, d6s, or d8s!
So, what happens? That Reverse Gravity, permanent or not, simply cannot accelerate the ball forever. It can only provide so much gravitational energy. After it gives up enough energy so that the creature struck by the ball takes 25 dice of damage, the ball cannot be accelerated further. Beyond that, the spell is simply tapped out.
So, you have created an expensive bazooka, but not a planet buster
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by hong
The dispel magic would dispel the teleportation circle. Other than that, is anything fancy supposed to happen?
The idea was that you put the rick in, it falls, hits the circle, gets teleported to the top, falls again, etc. Each fall speeds up the brick. One supposes that if allowed to run, the speed of the brick will approach the speed of light, and it will be very destructive when it hits the ground.... As I noted, though, it won't work with a brick.
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Umbran
The idea was that you put the rick in, it falls, hits the circle, gets teleported to the top, falls again, etc. Each fall speeds up the brick. One supposes that if allowed to run, the speed of the brick will approach the speed of light, and it will be very destructive when it hits the ground.... As I noted, though, it won't work with a brick.
It's an open question whether momentum is conserved during a teleport; regardless, the guy who came up with this idea was certainly guilty of violating Hong's Third Law....
- - -
Broken Fang
I don't have my PHB handy so someone might be able to look this up...do you retain your current velocity when you teleport/gate? If not than the brick would just keep falling at the same rate until the gate was broken...no increasing speed near the speed of light.
- - -
CRGreathouse
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Fang
I don't have my PHB handy so someone might be able to look this up...do you retain your current velocity when you teleport/gate?
It doesn't say. The rationalization that it does not has been used many times to defeat this "trick".
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by CRGreathouse
It doesn't say. The rationalization that it does not has been used many times to defeat this "trick".
Interesting. Ring Gates, in the DMG, specificaly allow for conserved momentum - you can make physical attacks through the gates. However, the Ring Gate has a weight allowance - no using them for relativistic masses. Probably coincidence, but not a bad one, in this case.
- - -
Rune
You're missing the obvious problem. It's not physically possible for the steel ball to go through a gate that goes from "here" to "here". This is because the ball will be pushing against itself the moment it tries to go through the gate--that is to say, if the ball could go through the gate, part of it would be coming out while the rest is going in, but, because the part coming out is in the same place as the part going in, it simply isn't happening in the first place. Any solid object that tries to go through the gate will appear to reflect off of the gate instead. Actually, it will be reflecting off of itself.
- - -
MythandLore
Would this work?
No.
You are aware of the Gate spell, are you not?
Yes.
You are aware that Gate allows you to travel from Here to There, right?
Yes.
Some mages created a reasonable (and apparently useless) variant of the Gate spell that causes you to go from Here to ... Here.
Okay.
A Gate can be made permanent.
No.
There is no point in going further.
A 'Gate' is an 'Instantaneous' spell, it cannot be effected by 'permanency' or duration extending 'meta-magic' feats.
A 'Cubic Gate' item comes close to what you are trying to do but still can't.
It has a 10% chance of something passing thru every round it is open, you couldn't leave it open for 3 days an average of 4,320 creatures would pass thru in that time.
The amount of times the object could pass thru a 'Ring Gate' is very limited by weight per day, so would not really work ether.
Even thee 'Portals' from the FRCS book (which act like perminent gates) would not work.
It has many rules which could be interprted to work with the spell 'Gate' inculding unattended objects (like throwing a rock) can't go thru on there own.
If you have the FRCS book I sugjest you look over the section on 'Portals' p59 and see what you think.
I myself would never allow what you are proposing.
Also if you take into account 'real science' after it gets too fast it will start to burn up do to friction of air etc.
If you were to fire a one pound ball of steel from space regardless of the speed, it will burn up before it gets to the ground.
Bottom line, don't waste anymore of your time on this sillyness.
- - -
reapersaurus
quote:
Originally posted by MythandLore
Bottom line, don't waste anymore of your time on this sillyness.
You don't understand - this kind of 'sillyness' is exactly the wine and song of what the IR is all about!
Umbran - good call - I was going to point out that bit about teleportation.
It's amazing how many people still believe that teleportation affects non-creatures.
- - -
ConcreteBuddha
However, a tiny Gate that could take only a small - say, one inch in diameter - ball of steel could be made permanent with the Permanency spell.
Now, imagine throwing this Gate upon a flat disc of steel.
Making the little Gate permanently.
Now, imagine two such flat discs of steel, each with a Gate cast on them, and permanency.
You cast Reverse Gravity on the glass, twice.
You then cast Permanency on the glass, twice.
Now, Reverse Gravity is only a 7th level spell.
If a 7th level spell can negate gravity, there is no question that 7th level magic could alter gravity over a specific area, to a specific extent.
This effect, could be made permanent.
9th level magic could alter gravity much more yet, over an even greater area yet.
Or, alter gravity very greatly, over a tiny area.
And this, too, can be made permanent.
Would the above, work?
That's a lot o' Permanency spells there, buster...
The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent... If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. PHB pg. 234
The spells you stated as being made permanent are not on the list on page 234.
If your DM is a pushover and allows you to Permanency every spell in the book, then yes, the above would work.
However, may I suggest a better alternative?
Permanent Summon Monster IX
Infinite numbers of outsiders who do your every command. That's kinda neat. And you don't have to go destroying innocent little crystal spheres...
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by reapersaurus
Umbran - good call - I was going to point out that bit about teleportation.
It's amazing how many people still believe that teleportation affects non-creatures.
You know I'm tired when I miss soemthing even more obvious - Teleport (and, by extension Teleport without Error and Teleportation Circle) has a weight limit. Even if you did use a non-creature version somehow, the spell will not support large relativistic masses. Without going into Epic rules, the spell will only support about half a ton.
That will limit the teleportation-trick damage - a half ton mass, moving at about the speed of light will profide enough energy to... turn a block of ice roughly 350 feet on a side into steam. This will vaporize soft targets (including the tarrasque or kaiju, though the tarrasque will regenerate), and devastate individual buildings or city blocks. But you probably won't level cities, much less kill planets. Nice for clearing your sea-lanes of icebergs, though.
- - -
Umbran
Oh, I forgot something else. Edena's device is not portable. It cannot be "moved about at will". I think Edena did not read the description of Reverse Gravity closely enough.
For one thing, Reverse gravity will only make things fall up, not in any old direction. The device will function only when the gates are perfectly aligned along the local up/down line, or the ball will wander off the path, and the device will fail, possibly violently.
Reverse Gravity accelerates the ball up. What happens when you set off the device? What does the ball hit? All the ball's momentum is upwards. The ball flashes into the sky at the speed of light, far exceeding a planet's escape velocity. Based upon Reverse Gravity, the thing can't actually target any object that isn't directly overhead. If you want to break a hole in a crystal sphere, this might be useful. But it won't hurt anything on the planet.
Let's say that Edena's wizard creates the spell "Generate Gravity" instead. He can arrange so that the field accelerates the ball from one gate to another, no matter the orientation of the gates.
What happens if you start this mechanism and the ball's path is horizontal (or anything other than perfectly vertical)? Well, the local planet's gravity still pulls the ball down. Again, the ball quickly deviates from the prescribed path, and the device fails.
Let's say the spell negates local gravity, so we don't have to worry about that deviation.
What happens when anyone rotates, or moves the device along a line other than the ball's motion? The relativistic ball has a heck of a lot of momentum. The device moves sideways, and the ball doesn't. Again, it fails. The thing cannot be moved after the ball begins to accelerate.
- - -
Gaiden
Gaiden says: finally someone has figured out how to make a DND nuke.
Seriously though, if any character wanted to ever even come up with this idea I would rule they would have to have the skill knowledge (physics) or some such knowledge that is relevant and set the DC for the check to even come up with this idea to something like 80. I say that because that check is not wholly impossible. 20th level character has 23 ranks, with item that can give up to +40 on any skill, with intelligence enhancers, something like this would be conceivable.
Moreover, such a thing is so powerful, that it would attract the attention of the GODS! Beware mortal wizard, for you tamper with things beyond your control. I mean, holy shiz, I would imagine that such an item, could even rip a black whole in space. You could destroy whole universes. If that does not get the gods' attentions I don't know what would.
Ultimately, I say allow it, if you are going to go with the logic of enhancing the spells the way you mentioned, and treat it like nuclear warfare - because it is so dangerous, no one, not even the GODs want to unleash that kind of power.
- - -
Zhure
20th level Sorcerer. Needs Craft Wand and to know Forcecage* and Shrink Item**. Make Shrink Item Wand. Optional: Ring of Sustenance; Teleport; Stone Shape.
Make several Wands of Shrink Item. Arrange for boulders cut into cubes of 40 cubic feet. Stone shape would be helpful here if you want to be completely self-sufficient.
Begin using the Wand to Shrink one boulder per round to 1/2000th of it's volume. Each boulder takes up .02 cubic feet. Create 50,000 of these shrunken boulders, which takes 83 1/3 hours, or about 3 1/2 days. This is where the Ring of Sustenance comes into play, so you can cast straight through without resting.
You'd of course need 1,000 wands of at least 4th level, which is prohibitively expensive, but this is just a thought exercise. (1,000x4x3x750 = 5,250,000 gp.)
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
The entire mass of 50,000 boulders will expand to it's original volume of 2,000,000 cubic
feet, but it is compressed to a volume of 1,000 cubic feet, because the force cage isn't susceptible to non-magical damage.
The forcecage will last for 40 hours, which should give you enough time to make an escape, as the density of this "device" will be staggering. (This is where Teleport is useful.)
I leave it to the physics experts to figure out what would happen.
Realize of course that this is magic, so normal physics may not apply, but I think this is more doable than the reverse gravity/teleport jink.
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Zhure
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
The entire mass of 50,000 boulders will expand to it's original volume of 2,000,000 cubic feet, but it is compressed to a volume of 1,000 cubic feet, because the force cage isn't susceptible to non-magical damage.
Sounds like some horrific Acme device made to torment Wile E. Coyote.
- - -
Magus_Jerel
save yourself the 5 mil -
take shrink item as an innate spell if possible...
Place boulders into expendable container -
Cast fly spell
Cast Teleport on expendable container and yourself
Cast levitate on expendable container- then back away as far as possible.
cast dispel magic...
Watch bunch of boulders expand and fall down on target below.
- - -
chilibean
The theory of relativity has no place in a fantasy setting with magic.
For those that wish to think up devastating weapons from bizarre combos of D&D magic and real physics, make a gate that unattended objects can pass through freely, but not gravity.
Then simply open it to the center of a blackhole or a neutron star. The infintely small black hole would simply pass through the gate and consume the entire world and surrounding solar system. The neutron star would create an explosion of almost incalculable power (depends on the size and duration of the gate).
Suppose that you time/space warp exactly 1 second into the past to a distance 1 light second away rotated 180 degrees around. The light bouncing off of you would exactly reach "yourself" at the moment you warped. Then, it would warp back with you, and travel to hit yourself again. And again. And again. So the same photon traveled the same distance an infinite number of times. An outside observer would thus see a beam of infinite photos (& thus infinite power) suddenly appear between 2 points 186 thousand miles apart. Since infinite energy has infinite mass and thus infinite gravity, the entire universe collapses onto the beam destroying the universe. Sounds like something Raistlin would do ...
- - -
sepulchrave
3 Troll Points, Edena.
- - -
Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by Zhure
You'd of course need 1,000 wands of at least 4th level, which is prohibitively expensive, but this is just a thought exercise. (1,000x4x3x750 = 5,250,000 gp.)
Now take all these cloth boulders and stack them up, then cast Force Cage around the entire group. Get to a safe distance and say the command word to end the Shrink Item spell(s).
[...snip...]
Realize of course that this is magic, so normal physics may not apply, but I think this is more doable than the reverse gravity/teleport jink.
More doable?
Let's look at crafting the wands...
Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell. Wand base price is 11,250 gp. That's 11.25 days per wand. Money aside, it takes 30 years to craft the wands. Even if we only use 100 wands, that's 3 years of labor.
Not to mention the effort in getting the boulders in the first place... I hardly think this winds up being more doable, due to the background labor invovled.
Plus, the DM is within all rights to say that speaking the command word once will free up one boulder, rather than all of them...
- - -
hong
quote:
Originally posted by Umbran
Not to mention the effort in getting the boulders in the first place...
Not a problem; see the "beating on walls" thread.
- - -
Cl1mh4224rd
totally off-topic: about special relativity
someone made the statement that mass decreases with velocity. this is in fact, the opposite.
an object approaching the speed of light "gains" mass. at the speed of light, this object (any object in fact, from a feather to a brick) has infinite mass and would require an infinite amount of energy to maintain that speed.
if objects "lost" mass the faster they moved, we'd already be travelling the universe at the speed of light.
besides, adena... i don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but...
quote:
The steel ball would enter the Gate, then exit the Gate.
The steel ball would move across the vacuum to the other Gate, then exit the other Gate.
The steel ball would move back to the first Gate, then exit the first Gate.
The steel ball would move to the second Gate again, enter, and exit.
[snip]
You teleport a one inch in diameter steel ball into the glass.
It falls, at normal acceleration, into the first Gate.
It exits that Gate on the OTHER side of the polarized gravity field, and falls upward, at 1x acceleration, into the other Gate.
It exits that Gate back on the original side of the polarized gravity field, and falls downward, at 1x acceleration, into the original Gate.
A nice trick. The ball falls faster, faster, and faster.
the second quoted paragraph contradicts the effect that you established in the first quoted paragraph. unless you're assuming that the reverse gravity also extends through the gate. i really don't think that's the case (my opinion of course, but others would agree i'm sure).
by the desription, this does sound like it would be a closed system. there is no other outside force being applied to the ball after the telekinesis. in that case, this is what would happen:
- the ball "falls" toward one of the gates, enters the gate, and immediately exits that same gate, heading the opposite direction.
- the reverse gravity is still in effect, pulling the ball back toward the first gate.
- assuming a vacuum, the ball loses any and all velocity it gained from the reverse gravity at the exact same point it began it's "decent".
a net gain of zero. the ball will never exceed a certain velocity. no mass driver for you!
if if if if for some reason, the ball actually did continue to accelerate, it would have to eventually absorb all available energy in the universe. all matter would have to be converted into energy, including the ball itself. of course, since there is no object available to accelerate anymore, things might get a little weird. another big bang, maybe? whatever happens, it'll generally mean the destruction of the universe as we know it. your target suddenly becomes inconsequential.
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Xahn'Tyr
If I recall correctly, falling damage in 3rd Ed is 1d6 per 10 ft fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.
This proves that accelleration due to gravity is linear in D&D world, with a rather low terminal velocity. Note also that there is no rule that lifts the 20d6 limit in a vaccum; so (in D&D land) this terminal velocity is not dependent on air friction. With these deduced laws of physics, you ball bearing would linearly accellerate to a speed such that it could inflict 20d6 of damage and then it would stop accellerating. Not really worth the effort.
If you wish to apply real world physics, then you are need a different game system (or a lot of house rules).
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jontherev
Re: totally off-topic: about special relativity
quote:
Originally posted by Cl1mh4224rd
someone made the statement that mass decreases with velocity. this is in fact, the opposite.
an object approaching the speed of light "gains" mass. at the speed of light, this object (any object in fact, from a feather to a brick) has infinite mass and would require an infinite amount of energy to maintain that speed.
if objects "lost" mass the faster they moved, we'd already be travelling the universe at the speed of light.
besides, adena... i don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but...
C'mon guys this is so elementary. Haven't you seen the movie K-Pax? It's all spelled out in there.
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Umbran
quote:
Originally posted by Xahn'Tyr
If I recall correctly, falling damage in 3rd Ed is 1d6 per 10 ft fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. This proves that accelleration due to gravity is linear in D&D world, with a rather low terminal velocity.
No, it doesn't. That rule says that damage scales linearly with the distance fallen. The 20 die cap probably has nothing to do with terminal velocity. It may instead be saying that beyond a certain sspeed, the effects on the character really don't change. Hitting the ground at 150 mph is very much like hitting the ground at 200 mph.
Even in the real world, you shouldn't make the simple assumption that damage should scale linearly with speed. In a heroic fanatasy, not only can you not do that, but you cannot even say that damage has all that much to do with physics.
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Savage Wombat
Credit where credit is due...
I just thought people should know that this is an idea originally published by Larry Niven, in his article about the Theory and Practice of Teleportation.
(His article on Time Travel is good, too - but the really good one is "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" and the inherent difficulties in Kryptonian reproduction - "Look out! Supersonic spermatazoa!")
Personally, I think the falling damage cap is a pretty good argument against unlimited gravitic acceleration in D&D. Furthermore, it's pretty clear that light and light-speed don't work in D&D as they would in a purely scientific universe, considering the nature of range and area of effect in D&D spells.
Do ring gates have a weight limit? If the object becomes too massive, it might not go through the gate anymore. This would certainly be the case in GURPS and Hero System - the extra time needed to pass the mass would defeat the cycle.
Beware of words like "instantly" when designing a game system. Infinites always cause this kind of problem.
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Caliban
And in addition to all the other reasons it wouldn't work:
The steel ball would have to have a perfectly straight trajectory. Any deviation, no matter how small, would cause it to impact the side of the gate after enough trips through the circuit. This would either destroy the Ring Gate (if it's going fast enough), or just caust it to bounce around the interior until it shatters the glassteal jar or runs out of momentum.
- - -
ANSWER:
You see, folks?
The Groundpounders failed.
The Elder Ones ate your brains, then bodies, then they ate Oerth.
Then they ate Toril, Krynn, Athas, Mystara, all the moons, the stars, the Crystal Spheres.
Then they ate the Deities.
The Elder One's feelings were terribly hurt because they were attacked by such a nasty and unreasonable thing as Groundpounders.
The Elder Ones feel much better now, are happy again.
They are cheering, vindicated at last, the Groundpounder Case thrown out of Court.
There really IS Justice in the Multiverse, say the Elder Ones.
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