What do you consider the quintessential knight in shinning armor?
DM_Matt
First Post
hong said:
I take issue with that one. He began the grand arab tradition of making and breaking land-for-peace deals in order to gain territory without war while having time to build up militarily to try to gain some more by means of war. He made peace with the crusader states only to build up his army to slaughter them.
Saladin references are what arab despots and terrorists use to assure their people, in something of a code, that they have no real intention of making peace with the West, and that they WILL do their utmost to conquer the world on behalf of Islam. People who often refer to Saladin include Saddam Hussein, Yassir Arafat, Bashar Assad (and his father before him), and Osama bin ladin.
DM_Matt said:
Keep modern politics out of this, please.
Note that the Crusaders themselves were the ones who spread the legend of Saladin as an enlightened ruler to Europe.
People will always abuse a myth for their own ends. The fact that Saladin is considered worthy of such is itself evidence that he fulfils the heroic champion archetype, at least in the Arab world.
There are plenty of separatist right-wing bigots in the US who quote Thomas Jefferson to justify their actions. Does this mean Jefferson is unworthy of reverence?
DM_Matt
First Post
It's relevant. He started the trend. I did not make any judgements on whether land for peace was practicable, but simply stated that the deals are at times broken. I don't see how anyone can deny that.
See that whole decieving the crusaders thing....The whole point was to look to the crusaders like he was far more enlightened than his predecessors...
Jefferson was a man of complicated and complex political ideals who is quoted by people from accross the political spectrum. Saladin, on the other hand, is the arab symbol of destruction of the west. While some non-arabs obviously do respect him, the overwhelming majority of Saladin references, especially those made in the Arab world, are in the context of calling for and justifying the destruction of the US and/or Israel.
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DM_Matt said:
If what you mean is that Saladin was a skilful and crafty diplomat and negotiator, that's entirely true.
I see. So despite his sparing Jerusalem's Christian inhabitants in 1187 (in stark contrast to the Crusaders' behaviour at the culmination of the First Crusade), Saladin REALLY WAS a bad guy at heart. The last time I heard an argument along these lines, I think the other guy was trying to convince me that the greys REALLY DO control the government, it's just covered up.
Naturally, I expect you to dismiss the following passages as yet more evidence of the cover-up:
"It is equally true that his generosity, his piety, devoid of fanaticism, that flower of liberality and courtesy which had been the model of our old chroniclers, won him no less popularity in Frankish Syria than in the lands of Islam" [Rene Grousse]
"The character of Saladin and of his work is singularly vivid. In many ways he was a typical Mahommedan, fiercely hostile towards unbelievers -- "Let us purge the air of the air they breathe" was his aim for the demons of the Cross, -- intensely devout and regular in prayers and fasting. He showed the pride of race in the declaration that "God reserved this triumph for the Ayyubites before all others." His generosity and hospitality were proved in his gifts to Richard and his treatment of captives. He had the Oriental's power of endurance, alternating with violent and emotional courage. Other virtues were all his own, his extreme gentleness, his love for children, his flawless honesty, his invariable kindliness, his chivalry to women and the weak. Above all he typifies the Mahommedan’s utter selfsurrender to a sacred cause." [Encyclopedia Britannica]
You might also want to consult some actual historical sources and biographies of the man before allowing your credibility to recede further:
Brundage, J.A., 1962, The crusades - a documentary survey, The Marquette University Press, Milwaukee.
Lane-Poole, S., 1964, Saladin and the fall of the kingdom of Jerusalem, Khayats, Beirut.
Regan, G., 1987, Saladin and the fall of Jerusalem, Croon Helm, London.
In your very first sentence, you said that Saladin did things that might be considered dubious by today's standards. For some reason, this means Saladin is worthy of condemnation, and yet when Jefferson does the same, he becomes a man of "complex political ideals". I say, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
In the context of an ongoing conflict in the Middle East, it's natural that references will be made to past military leaders on both sides of the conflict. This doesn't negate the reputation that Saladin had, and still has, as an exemplar of Christian and Muslim virtues. His standing even in medieval times transcended religious and national boundaries.
Furthermore, how exactly does what happens in the world today reflect on Saladin's character, 900 years ago?
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JRRNeiklot
First Post
I can't believe no one has mentioned Keldorn from Baldur's Gate 2, yet.
Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke
Josey Wales
Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke
Josey Wales
lord irial
First Post
kenjib said:
I completely agree; Don Quixote de la Mancha is the standard by which I judge Paladins in my game.
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