[C&C] Why the edition wars?

Mythmere1 · Feb 17, 2005

Almost every C&C thread posted so far has devolved into an edition war, as 3.x players dive in to say how much they would hate playing C&C and how wonderful 3.x is. It's a little irritating, since it becomes almost impossible for the C&C players to discuss the game or even describe it to the curious.

Why are the 3.x players so threatened by C&C? Here I'm not talking about people who actually compare the rules and say, "well, because of x, y, and z I think that's not the right game for me," I'm talking about people who swing in and announce that they haven't read the C&C rules and don't plan to, but vehemently state that C&C must suck -- apparently on the grounds that since 3.x is so perfect, anything else must be terrible...

There isn't much acknowledgement that the C&C gamers might have different gaming priorities -- or even if we did, there's the assumption that nothing but 3.x could possibly meet any other gaming priority that's out there.

C&C represents no threat to D&D. It may have sold out in virtually a month, and be doing very well, but let's face it - the size of the first C&C print run was probably smaller than the print run required for Hasbro inter-office memos.

Why does it seem to upset the 3.x players so badly? Is it that the idea of another FRPG is somehow insulting to them? I've never seen GURPS attacked so fiercely, or Hackmaster, and these are both FRPGs, so that doesn't seem to be the issue.

MrFilthyIke · Feb 17, 2005

I like 3.5 and am not threatened by C&C. I'd pick it up (after the 2nd print run). People just like arguing. Edition wars are fun to some people. You know the saying about opinions and a#$ holes, everyone's got one.

Clint · Feb 17, 2005

This is just a guess, but I think that most of the people coming to C&C are coming from 3.x, and make threads saying: "Finally, a lighter version of modern D&D!"

Then the fans of 3.x read this and say: "What's wrong with my favorite game? No, your favorite game sucks!"

Hilarity ensues.

MarkAHart · Feb 17, 2005

Although I have not yet picked up a copy of C&C (and indeed, play 3.x), I think the idea of C&C is an extremely good one, and may well represent the opportunity for bringing new players into our hobby. Anything that strengthens the hobby is, in my opinion, A Good Thing.

MrFilthyIke · Feb 17, 2005

Clint said:
This is just a guess, but I think that most of the people coming to C&C are coming from 3.x, and make threads saying: "Finally, a lighter version of modern D&D!"

Then the fans of 3.x read this and say: "What's wrong with my favorite game? No, your favorite game sucks!"

Hilarity ensues.

Clint sums it up very well.

MoogleEmpMog · Feb 17, 2005

D&D 3.x isn't my favorite system. Even d20 Modern and Conan the Roleplaying Game, both of which I vastly prefer to any version of D&D, don't achieve that status.

Dream Pod 9's (relatively rules-lite) Silhouette Core is my favorite system.

My problems with C&C have nothing to do with feeling a threat to D&D 3.x and everything to do with:

a) Finding a lot of aspects of C&C very lame. Not because they're rules-lite, but because they're rules-lite in the sense AD&D was: "we didn't design it right, so you can!"
b) Finding a lot of the arguments C&C enthusiasts use unfair to 3.x D&D. 3.x has lots of problems, but I don't usually see the ones pointed out by C&C's fans.
c) Being sad that the only modern treatment of the "old" D&D rules is essentially based off the god-awful AD&D rules rather than the smooth basic D&D rules.
d) Being annoyed that vastly superior rules-lite games are ignored because Troll Lord, to their credit, leveraged the nostalgia factor to the hilt.
e) Being even more annoyed that what's billed as a complete game is in actuality a d20ish update to AD&D that requires its CKG to actually, y'know, maybe work.

For what it's worth, the Castle Keeper's guide sounds like it may be a very cool book and one I might pick up.

TerraDave · Feb 17, 2005

Clint said:
This is just a guess, but I think that most of the people coming to C&C are coming from 3.x, and make threads saying: "Finally, a lighter version of modern D&D!"

Then the fans of 3.x read this and say: "What's wrong with my favorite game? No, your favorite game sucks!"

Hilarity ensues.

yep.

This also comes from the C&C fans. C&C post here have emphasised the advantages or at least differences with 3ed, so that invites "comparative" comments. (and this may all be natural given the nature of these boards. I would guess on Dragonsfoot there are a lot of comparisons with AD&D)

but I also see a lot of curiosity, not just criticism. And who is too say posters don't know a lot, you just have to read all these threads

SWBaxter · Feb 17, 2005

Clint said:
This is just a guess, but I think that most of the people coming to C&C are coming from 3.x, and make threads saying: "Finally, a lighter version of modern D&D!"

Then the fans of 3.x read this and say: "What's wrong with my favorite game? No, your favorite game sucks!"

Hilarity ensues.

Yup, you got it in one. If and when C&C threads start to be about the game itself rather than comparisons with D&D, then they might generate more light than heat. But so long as C&C fans feel more inclined to make posts declaring that D&D fans are threatened than to make posts about the game itself, the results are predictable.

Disclaimer: neither game is currently on my list of top ten games I'd like to run.

Yuan-Ti · Feb 17, 2005

Your original point is VERY good. If people want to discuss C&C because they have it and want to share ideas about it, other people should be courteous and leave them to their thread. Hijacking the thread, even if you have read the rules and don't like them, just to tell people that C&C sucks is simply rude and trollish. If someone comes and says, "Interesting, tell me more" this is not a license to jump in and say "Stay away! This games sucks!" Again, even if you have read the rules, you are not really being helpful, but trying to impose your views on others. So what if the answer that questioner gets is going to portray C&C as it will be portrayed by someone who likes it. How does this impact your life so negatively? Why is it necessary to rain on someone else's parade? Go have your own parade!

It's the politics of RPGs, it is ugly and, I might add, it is "hurting the industry." (Apologies to Jon Stewart.)

Mythmere1 · Feb 17, 2005

MoogleEmpMog said:
D&D 3.x isn't my favorite system. Even d20 Modern and Conan the Roleplaying Game, both of which I vastly prefer to any version of D&D, don't achieve that status.

Dream Pod 9's (relatively rules-lite) Silhouette Core is my favorite system.

My problems with C&C have nothing to do with feeling a threat to D&D 3.x and everything to do with:

a) Finding a lot of aspects of C&C very lame. Not because they're rules-lite, but because they're rules-lite in the sense AD&D was: "we didn't design it right, so you can!"
b) Finding a lot of the arguments C&C enthusiasts use unfair to 3.x D&D. 3.x has lots of problems, but I don't usually see the ones pointed out by C&C's fans.
c) Being sad that the only modern treatment of the "old" D&D rules is essentially based off the god-awful AD&D rules rather than the smooth basic D&D rules.
d) Being annoyed that vastly superior rules-lite games are ignored because Troll Lord, to their credit, leveraged the nostalgia factor to the hilt.
e) Being even more annoyed that what's billed as a complete game is in actuality a d20ish update to AD&D that requires its CKG to actually, y'know, maybe work.

For what it's worth, the Castle Keeper's guide sounds like it may be a very cool book and one I might pick up.

Without addressing "lame," "unfair," "god-awful," etc., I'm curious as to whether you've read the C&C rules to form these strongly voiced opinions or whether they're based on something else. Your post is a fairly good example of what I'm talking about, and I don't think you've read the rules because although your point (e) is valid, it's not the CKG but M&T that's needed. That error indicates that you haven't read the book and that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about...