Rules Lawyer: Improved Trip with Weapon Question

Funeris · Feb 23, 2005

Ok I have a question or two about improved trip using a weapon.

Relevant Info:

Originally posted by SRD:
TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

Originally posted by SRD:
IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So my questions:

-A two-weapon (dexterity focused) fighter using a sickle (which can be used for trip attempts) in his off-hand would call the Trip, and roll a melee touch attack against his opponent. There are no AoO's against the fighter because of Improved Trip and/or the use of a weapon on the attempt.
-If the hit is successful, opposed Strength (at an extra +4) VS. Strength/Dex (whichever is higher) Rolls.
-Success puts opponent in prone position and fighter gets to re-use his attack now

Is that right? Maybe a stupid question...but I haven't slept so bear with my exhausted mind.

Next Question: I'm using a dexterity focused fighter...but I have to use Str modifier for the trip not Dex?

Is there anything I'm missing? Something seems off. And I'm also wondering what's the point of Improved Trip if all it gives me is an extra +4. Although I guess with a dexterity focused fighter, the extra +4 will be needed for the Strength check.

Thanks for your help & time.

Thanee · Feb 23, 2005

What's the point of Improved Trip? You mean apart from provoking no AoO when not using a trip weapon (unarmed trip), getting a whopping +4 bonus on the opposed check, and an extra attack after a successful trip attack?

Well... nothing.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Seems like you got it right. Except maybe the attack part... you do not get to "re-use" the attack for anything other than an extra attack against the tripped foe.

Amal Shukup · Feb 23, 2005

Funeris said:
-A two-weapon (dexterity focused) fighter using a sickle (which can be used for trip attempts) in his off-hand would call the Trip, and roll a melee touch attack against his opponent. There are no AoO's against the fighter because of Improved Trip and/or the use of a weapon on the attempt.
-If the hit is successful, opposed Strength (at an extra +4) VS. Strength/Dex (whichever is higher) Rolls.
-Success puts opponent in prone position and fighter gets to re-use his attack now

Is that right?

Looks right.

I'd be tempted to impose the off hand penalty to the Tripping Character's Strength Check (1/2 Mod). That raises some potential grief though (two-handed tripping Weapons getting 1.5...), and I've seen nothing canonical to support it.

Funeris said:
Next Question: I'm using a dexterity focused fighter...but I have to use Str modifier for the trip not Dex?

Unless I'm missing something, I believe that by the RAW you must use Strength. (IMC, I allow trippers to use DEX IF they invested in the Weapon Finesse Feat. But that's a House Rule).

Funeris said:
I'm also wondering what's the point of Improved Trip if all it gives me is an extra +4.

Enh? No AOO (you've ALSO got a weapon, but you don't need it), a +4 to the Trip check, AND a free hit to the downed opponent? Pretty good in my book...

Happy Tripping!

A'Mal

harmyn · Feb 23, 2005

Dude, Improved Trip is an insane feat, don't downplay it. Normally when you try and trip you provoke an AoO and if successful you make the opposed check and if that wins they are prone. The End. The Feat removes the AoO, gives a big bonus to the opposed check, and allows you to immediately attack your NOW PRONE opponent. Hardly seems worth a feat. Wish the spellcaster feats for focus were as weak on the assists they give wizards.

Funeris · Feb 23, 2005

Well thanks for reassuring me that I had the concept...my brain is running like a 286 this morning....

I won't downplay Improved Trip

My fighter is actually focused on it and the two weapon fighting...so I was just having some doubts...feeling a little out of it.

So, thanks again.

robberbaron · Feb 23, 2005

The attacker uses STR because he is trying to pull the defender off his feet.
The defender can stand and take it (use STR) or try to hop onto his other foot (use DEX).

Funeris · Feb 23, 2005

Hmmm...attacker uses str...see the thing is the character only has a 13 str...while he has a 17 dex. He has weapon finesse. He's fast, not strong. Is improved tripping pointless for him then?

Probably not.

But I think I may try to see if the DM will houserule the bonus to a Dex...a sudden swift and not necessarily powerful movement can knock someone off their feet in real life just as often as 1200 lbs. of force applied directly to one's chest. Plus I'm using weapons where the Weapon Finesse feat applies....

I don't agree that I have to use STR. But I should talk to the DM about it.

IndyPendant · Feb 23, 2005

Nothing to add to this, except--as a GM, I generally like to allow my players to play the style they want (within reason, of course: ). But I would not allow dex over str for trip attacks. The idea being, as someone has already said, tripping an opponent is a matter of strength and skill, not agility. The skill part of that is represented by the BAB for the touch attack and the Improved Trip feat, not 'flashy moves' or 'quick reflexes' (dexterity mod).

I do have a question. I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no'--the text for the Trip attack quoted above makes that pretty clear--but I wanted to ask the rules gurus out there to make sure. : ) --Trip attacks can't be made by any old weapon (i.e. a longsword) right? Just weapons that include the 'can be used to trip' type descriptor?

Patryn of Elvenshae · Feb 23, 2005

IndyPendant said:
--Trip attacks can't be made by any old weapon (i.e. a longsword) right? Just weapons that include the 'can be used to trip' type descriptor?

Correct.

ARandomGod · Feb 23, 2005

IndyPendant said:
Nothing to add to this, except--as a GM, I generally like to allow my players to play the style they want (within reason, of course: ). But I would not allow dex over str for trip attacks. The idea being, as someone has already said, tripping an opponent is a matter of strength and skill, not agility. The skill part of that is represented by the BAB for the touch attack and the Improved Trip feat, not 'flashy moves' or 'quick reflexes' (dexterity mod).

I do have a question. I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no'--the text for the Trip attack quoted above makes that pretty clear--but I wanted to ask the rules gurus out there to make sure. : ) --Trip attacks can't be made by any old weapon (i.e. a longsword) right? Just weapons that include the 'can be used to trip' type descriptor?

Whereas I've often been tempted to rule that ALL trip attacks are dex based. I think WoTC is focused too much on strength, and an attempt to PUSH or PULL someone down is really just a modified grapple, not an actual trip attempt. It's a "throw" from a grapple. An actual trip is something that should be made AND opposed by dex.

I thought that the rule allowed you to trip with any weapon. Special trip weapons just gave you extra options (you can drop a trip weapon if your opponent manages to overwhelm your throw 'trip' and throws you instead, thereby dropping the weapon and not yourself). I guess I'll have to look that up again. I have a player who's going to be dissapointed at not being able to make a trip attempt with his bastard sword....

Edit: Yup, now I have it to show him. Ah well, it's not like he was using trip often, just that one time. He'll still be dissapointed though. ^_^