The Problem with Star Wars

I was thinking on some of the comments made on another Star Wars thread... Namely about the acting and directing. Particularly about Hayden Christensen.

I think Hayden Christiansen is a fine actor. I think that most of the principals in the film are fine actors. I think the problem is we have an inept and incompetent director/writer who dominates the entire process and does not take suggestion well. Lucas is a great conceptualist. He has good ideas and creates great foundations. However, it's his execution that stinks which is why he needs others involved in the creative process. The fact most recognize The Empire Strikes Back as the best of the three original SW flicks is a testament to that fact. Lucas had the least direct control over that film compared to the others.

When one honestly compares PM and AotC to ANH and RotJ, I honestly believe that there's not much of a real difference beyond the impact of something new and fresh and something twice baked. ANH has the benefit of being the first of its kind; the other three are rehash. So...

The problem with Star Wars is as much the fans as anything. Calling Lucas inept and incompetent as a writer/director is just plain stupid. He has a very unique style. He is NOT the best, but he isn't inept OR incompetent.

The problem is as much that many of us have grown up and remember Star Wars as something that Lucas doesn't see it as. He writes perfectly for the style. The problem is looking at Star Wars in a way that it was not intended. Star Wars is supposed to be the classic Saturday Matinee type movie. Cheesy, stilted dialogue, quick romances that only happen because the plot says so, and fairly flat characters.

All of these complaints that are said about the movies usually ignore this, and like it or not, the execution of the movies is perfect for the style which Lucas wants to create.

But considering this discussion is as old as the prequels themselves and beaten to undeath, this isn't going to get anywhere new. Lines are drawn, you either like it or you don't. There's nothing wrong with NOT liking the new movies or how Lucas does things, but every single Star Wars topic does not need to constantly go down these same lines. Some of us are enjoying these movies, and if we were in the minority, these movies wouldn't still be making the kind of money they do.

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:

The problem is looking at Star Wars in a way that it was not intended. Star Wars is supposed to be the classic Saturday Matinee type movie. Cheesy, stilted dialogue, quick romances that only happen because the plot says so, and fairly flat characters.

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I agree, to a point. Star Wars is the ultimate "B" movie (though it also features mythic themes and awesome special effects) and it's not really meant to be much more. People who view the OT as more than that are really missing the point of these films, IMO.

Having said that, if the OT were "B" movies, the prequels are "C" level at best. The OT may have had cheesy, stilted dialogue, but the OT contains some of the most memorable movie quotes of all time.

Does anyone remember any cool or memorable quotes from the prequels?

The OT was flawed, but it packed in alot of memorable charm. There's not much charm in these prequels.

The problem with Star Wars is as much the fans as anything. Calling Lucas inept and incompetent as a writer/director is just plain stupid. He has a very unique style. He is NOT the best, but he isn't inept OR incompetent.

The problem is as much that many of us have grown up and remember Star Wars as something that Lucas doesn't see it as. He writes perfectly for the style. The problem is looking at Star Wars in a way that it was not intended. Star Wars is supposed to be the classic Saturday Matinee type movie. Cheesy, stilted dialogue, quick romances that only happen because the plot says so, and fairly flat characters.

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Did you read my entire post? I never mentioned not like or liking the films. I mention that the general problem with the films lies in the level of control Lucas has over them.

I also think that to chalk up the results in ANH, RotJ, TPH, and AotC to being based upon a Saturday serial is a cop out. TESB doesn't have the same level of flaws, doesn't have the same stilted dialogue, the same poor acting, the same flat characters as the other films... At least not to the same degree. One can even see the attraction between Solo and Leia as making some kind of sense.

There's no reason to defend the indefensible just because one enjoys the films. I happen to own and enjoy watching all of the films. This does not mean that I'm blind to the flaws they contain. Defending the indefensible is, to use your words, "just plain stupid."

CrusaderX said:

Does anyone remember any cool or memorable quotes from the prequels?

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"Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?"

Sure, that's from the Revenge of the Sith trailer, but its perfect and right up there with everything from the OT...except "I am your father", nothing can ever match that one. Though hearing Obi-Wan scream "You were the Chosen One!" had a very serious power to it, also.

None Episode III memorable quotes...well, you're right that there aren't many, though I'd say Darth Maul's "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi...at last we will have revenge." is memorable. Maybe only because its Darth Maul, though.

The OT was flawed, but it packed in alot of memorable charm. There's not much charm in these prequels.

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Thing is, at least some of that charm comes with age.

The Serge said:

TESB doesn't have the same level of flaws, doesn't have the same stilted dialogue, the same poor acting, the same flat characters as the other films... At least not to the same degree.

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Would you be amazed to hear that there are some on these very boards that said those things were worse in Empire than in the others? Search is down so I can't really help with that, but it has been said by more than one poster.

There's no reason to defend the indefensible just because one enjoys the films. I happen to own and enjoy watching all of the films. This does not mean that I'm blind to the flaws they contain. Defending the indefensible is, to use your words, "just plain stupid."

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If there's no point in defending it, then what's the point in attacking it? Do you just not want anyone disagreeing with you? Am I THAT different as a Star Wars fan to actually defend what I feel should be defended?

The Serge said:

There's no reason to defend the indefensible just because one enjoys the films. I happen to own and enjoy watching all of the films. This does not mean that I'm blind to the flaws they contain. Defending the indefensible is, to use your words, "just plain stupid."

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Nothing is indefensible on the world wide web. And saying that they all Saturday serials is not a cop out, it is understanding what the films are.

I think that the old movies were...simpler. I mean compare the end sequence between ANH and TPM. ANH basically has one battle on which all the focus resides, which is won through skill, faith and the action of the heroes. TPM has four battles, two of which are won through incompetence.

Secondly, I think the new movies are missing the 'Han Solo' element. Everything is too serious (Jedi) or too comic (Jar-Jar). I miss the random sniping between Leia and Han. You could make the case that the old movies had a lot of understated humour (in addition to the slapstick of 3PO), which is sorely missing in the new movies.

So that's what I think. The new movies are overly complex and lack much of the humour that was charming in the first ones.

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:

The problem with Star Wars is as much the fans as anything. Calling Lucas inept and incompetent as a writer/director is just plain stupid. He has a very unique style. He is NOT the best, but he isn't inept OR incompetent.

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Actually, yes, he really is inept and incompetent, at least in the specifics of screenwriting, dialogue, directing and editing.

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:

The problem is as much that many of us have grown up and remember Star Wars as something that Lucas doesn't see it as. He writes perfectly for the style. The problem is looking at Star Wars in a way that it was not intended. Star Wars is supposed to be the classic Saturday Matinee type movie. Cheesy, stilted dialogue, quick romances that only happen because the plot says so, and fairly flat characters.

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That's just flat out wrong and insulting to all of us to tell us we don't even know what the movies are about. As a point of fact, I've (and most fans) have always seen the movies as a remake of serial type movies. Only lately, Lucas would kinda disagree with you, and claim that they were about Joseph Campbell's theories of the Heroic Journey and modern mythology. Hogwash. To add to Lucas' other flaws, he's now become insufferably pretentious. :\

AMG said:

All of these complaints that are said about the movies usually ignore this, and like it or not, the execution of the movies is perfect for the style which Lucas wants to create.

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No, they're not. Good serials had good dialogue, memorable and interesting characters with depth and good pacing. The Star Wars prequels really drop the ball on developing any of those. It's not impossible to see the strength of the concept and story shining through the horribly amateurish execution, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the execution is really bad.

AMG said:

But considering this discussion is as old as the prequels themselves and beaten to undeath, this isn't going to get anywhere new. Lines are drawn, you either like it or you don't. There's nothing wrong with NOT liking the new movies or how Lucas does things, but every single Star Wars topic does not need to constantly go down these same lines. Some of us are enjoying these movies, and if we were in the minority, these movies wouldn't still be making the kind of money they do.

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No, every topic does not. This topic was specifically started to go down those same lines. If it bothers you so much, don't come in an rain on everyone else's parade. The reason these discussions are popular is because we're fans of Star Wars after all.

GSHamster said:

I think that the old movies were...simpler. I mean compare the end sequence between ANH and TPM. ANH basically has one battle on which all the focus resides, which is won through skill, faith and the action of the heroes. TPM has four battles, two of which are won through incompetence.

Secondly, I think the new movies are missing the 'Han Solo' element. Everything is too serious (Jedi) or too comic (Jar-Jar). I miss the random sniping between Leia and Han. You could make the case that the old movies had a lot of understated humour (in addition to the slapstick of 3PO), which is sorely missing in the new movies.

So that's what I think. The new movies are overly complex and lack much of the humour that was charming in the first ones.

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I think you've nailed part of the problem with the new movies. The chemistry between the characters AND the actors just falls flat compared the the personal interactions of Luke, Leia, and Han. The actors clicked like crazy, even when they weren't delivering lines. And the characters themselves had a fantastic dynamic in the way they interacted. The characters in the new movies just.. don't gel in that same way. I don't think it's a problem with the actors' quality, maybe the casting didn't have the same care as the original (where they were tested as groups to make sure they were a cohesive and engaging group).

Of course, I think Lucas has gone senile in his writing too, but that's another point altogether.

Joshua Dyal said:

Actually, yes, he really is inept and incompetent, at least in the specifics of screenwriting, dialogue, directing and editing.

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I'm not sure how exactly this can be argued one way or another. Then again, I'm not really of the belief that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to write dialogue, etc. And really, I see directing and editing in the same way. There are different STYLES, yes, but a right and wrong? No way. Lucas has a very unique style, and I've never said he was the best director.

Of course, if he was inept and incompetent, A New Hope would never have done as well as it did and we wouldn't be having this discussion today. Obviously, he's doing something write as people still go and see the movies, even if many(myself included) come back from them with complaints. If he was really so inept, even the Star Wars name wouldn't be able to save it.

That's just flat out wrong and insulting to all of us to tell us we don't even know what the movies are about. As a point of fact, I've (and most fans) have always seen the movies as a remake of serial type movies. Only lately, Lucas would kinda disagree with you, and claim that they were about Joseph Campbell's theories of the Heroic Journey and modern mythology. Hogwash. To add to Lucas' other flaws, he's now become insufferably pretentious. :\

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I didn't say that everyone didn't know what the movies were about. And if I did, then that isn't exactly what I meant. A better way of putting it is that many people lose sight of what its about when complaining about dialogue, etc.

Of course, you're right in that it seems like there's been a shift in Lucas' 'excuses'. While its obvious the whole Joseph Cambell thing has been there from the beginning, I haven't really heard Lucas touting that until lately. Can't help but wonder why, though it doesn't really matter to me that much. Besides, what's wrong with Lucas having flaws? Its not like the rest of us are perfect and can make perfect movies.

No, they're not. Good serials had good dialogue, memorable and interesting characters with depth and good pacing. The Star Wars prequels really drop the ball on developing any of those. It's not impossible to see the strength of the concept and story shining through the horribly amateurish execution, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the execution is really bad.

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I won't disagree that the execution isn't as great as it could have been, but its still very good. Like I've said, if it WASN'T, people wouldn't keep seeing these movies. There wouldn't be legions of fans that camp out for these movies every time they release, or anything similar. His execution isn't PERFECT, but there's definitely something being done right.

Especially considering that most Star Wars fans are fairly set on having it the 'right' way, me included.

No, every topic does not. This topic was specifically started to go down those same lines. If it bothers you so much, don't come in an rain on everyone else's parade. The reason these discussions are popular is because we're fans of Star Wars after all.

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True, but is it really raining on a parade if the rain has started already? Is it so bad that I feel the need to present the other point of view?

And on another note, I definitely agree that the lack of a Han-like character is a big hit to the PT. They could really have used some good sarcastic humour beyond the few instances its in there.