shades vs shadow conjuration

thorian · Mar 15, 2005

Does Shades allow the duplicating of any Sor/Wiz Conjuration while Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration allow only Conjuration spells within the (summoning) or (creation) subschools?

Reading the texts below, it seems that they deliberately differentiated between Shades and the other two spells upon which it is based.

Shadow Conjuration
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

Shadow Conjuration, Greater
This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it can duplicate any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower.

Shades
This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.

If Shades opens the door to (calling) and (teleportation) subschools, many abuses can be had. Especially Planar Binding duplication using Shades.

thorian · Mar 16, 2005

I have searched FAQ's errata, etc., and I am unable to find anything to clarify the matter. It does seem like Shades can indeed replicate any sor/wiz conjuration spells. Any disagreement?

Liquidsabre · Mar 16, 2005

Shades functions as per the Shadow Conjuration spells, so (summoning) or (creation) subschools only. The only part of the spell that Shades changes is that it may emulate 8th level or lower spells of those subschools.

Li Shenron · Mar 16, 2005

It makes more sense to me if it doesn't allow Calling spells, definitely it would be nonsense if the called creatures were quasi-real. You could apply the % chance only however... but I think this series of spells is versatile enough and doesn't need extension to teleportations.

thorian · Mar 16, 2005

Liquidsabre said:
Shades functions as per the Shadow Conjuration spells, so (summoning) or (creation) subschools only. The only part of the spell that Shades changes is that it may emulate 8th level or lower spells of those subschools.

Why the difference in the wording of Greater Shadow Conjuration and Shades? Both are based upon Shadow Conjuration, but Greater Shadow Conjuration specifically states only (summoning) or (creation) spells may be duplicated, whereas, Shades does not.

Liquidsabre · Mar 17, 2005

thorian said:
Why the difference in the wording of Greater Shadow Conjuration and Shades? Both are based upon Shadow Conjuration, but Greater Shadow Conjuration specifically states only (summoning) or (creation) spells may be duplicated, whereas, Shades does not.

The Shades spell states that it functions as per Shadow Conjuration spell, so it functions exactly the same, except where the Shades spell states how it functions differently. In this case: emulates 8th level spells or lower. Other spells such as Shadow Evocation, the summon monster spells, the summon nature's ally spells, cure spells, inflict spells, etc. all do the same thing. Their text differs from the original, but instead of repeating the exact same text they just refer you to the text of the original and only state how this version of the spell works differently. The same goes for the Shades spell here of course.

Edit- Reread the spells. Not so sure now, since greater shadow conjuration repeats the text for shadow conjuration. Shades makes a specific note to repeat the text but excluding the requirements for sticking to the (summoning) and (creation) subschools. Gah, that's torqued.

Hypersmurf · Mar 17, 2005

I see what he's saying, though.

Greater Shadow Conjuration emulates Shadow Conjuration, except for the spells it can emulate.

What spells can Shadow Conjuration emulate? Any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

What spells can Greater Shadow Conjuration emulate? Any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower.

So, we replace the appropriate text in Shadow Conjuration, and our description of Greater Shadow Conjuration is:
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Greater Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower.

-----

Shades emulates Shadow Conjuration, except for the spells it can emulate.

What spells can Shadow Conjuration emulate? Any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

What spells can Shades emulate? Sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.

So, we replace the appropriate text in Shadow Conjuration, and our description of Shades is:
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shades can mimic sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.

In this description, Shades is not limited to Summoning and Creation.

Now, it's not how I'd run Shades, but I see his line of reasoning

-Hyp.

Jack Simth · Mar 17, 2005

If you pull the subschools, a Sorceror that grabs it gets a HUGE flexibility boost the moment that they do, at no cost to EXP - Greater Teleport (fail your own will save at no cost), Teleport Object (handy for getting potions to your fighter on the front lines), Maze, Trap the Soul, Summon Monster VIII, Incindiary Cloud, Instant Summons, Plane Shift, Wall of Iron.... all at once. Sure, it's a 9-th level slot, but the only spells that grant more flexibility is Wish and it's Limited brother .... which cost EXP. Putting the sub-schools back is a balance issue.

shades vs shadow conjuration

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