Gary Gygax Q&A, Part IX - Page 80


What's on your mind?

  1. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Veil
    Personally that's what I like most about the D&D/D20 system -- the XP! I always felt Star Frontiers and Marvel should of had an XP system similar to 1E. I don't remember Top Secret anymore. Those being the TSR games I had tried.

    What do you mean by super-hero vs. archtypes? I read something on this somewhere by someone. I forget who and the essay.
    This isn't the place for my critique regarding how I believe experience should be given out.

    If you reallly wish to have the benefit of my current thinking on the matter check the system set forth in the Lejendary Adventure game.

    The same applies basically to commentary on 3E. however, I will say that the original character classes were established on archetypes, and the new system has done away with that basis, mainly by the feats and prestige classes, the result making PCs more akin to comic book superheroes rather than historical human archetypes.

    Cheers,
    Gary

 

  • #792
    Hello, Gary,

    I hope all is well with you. I have a few Arneson related questions if you don't mind. I'm curious if you've had a chance to check out Dave Arneson's recent rerelease of the Blackmoor campaign and, if so, what you think of it.

    There is also a release of Castle Blackmoor scheduled for September that touts itself as the first dungeon crawl ever created for D&D. I'm curioous, were you a participant in that first dungeon crawl? If so, what do you recall about it? Do you think it will draw the faithful to see what got it all started back then?

    It would seem that with Castle Blackmoor and Castle Zagyg on their way, the nostalgia for 'the good ol' days' seems to be stronger than ever. It must be nice to know that people are still interested in your creations after such a long time has passed.

    Anyway, I'm looking forward to Hall of Many Panes and Zagyg with much interest. Hope they come off the press as smotthly and as timely as possible.

    All the best,

    Jokamachi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh
    ...the new system has done away with that basis, mainly by the feats and prestige classes, the result making PCs more akin to comic book superheroes rather than historical human archetypes.
    Hello Gary,

    That remark tickled me, because it reminded me of a conversation I had with a gaming buddy over twenty years ago. He was a big comic book fan, as well as being a great gamer. One day, he prevailed upon me to play a superhero game (I can't remember which) but I was having none of it. I had fond memories of reading Spider-Man when my years were still in single digits and that's where I wanted to leave it.

    "But in a game of D&D you're basically playing a superhero!" He argued. I thought he had a good point, too. Still never got me to play a comic-based RPG though.

    Sorry to get all anecdotal. Can I make amends by returning to the point of the thread and asking you a question? Please forgive me if you've answered it already and I missed it.

    If you were to run a game (of anything you like, of course) for a hypothetical group of players uncontaminated by previous exposure to any published modules, which one would you most consider refereeing again?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh
    I will say that the original character classes were established on archetypes, and the new system has done away with that basis, mainly by the feats and prestige classes, the result making PCs more akin to comic book superheroes rather than historical human archetypes.
    Hmmm, I'm not sure I buy that (and I apologize in advance if this is getting OT). BD&D characters and AD&D characters are very much like superheroes as well. High level character could destroy entire towns of LL foes, fall from orbit, possess superhuman attributes, etc. You certainly have more options and "powers" in 3e to be sure, but I certainly wouldn't call the early edition characters "historical human archetypes" by comparison. They're all geared towards representing mythological and fantasy archetypes anyway.

    Just my 2 bits.

    A'koss.

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    I think the main difference here lay in a matter of focus.

    Yes, the adventuring character in AD&D is well above the average and in some cases exceptional in compitency. But he is also focused around a single profession, and thus tends to require other 'specialists' around him for efficient group cooperation.

    Whereas in other games, characters who dont follow a strict archtype tend to be able to assume a generalists above average skill in broad areas, and do not then require as much coheseive party cooperation. An 'army of one' is the appropriate term. This, with the more rapid experience advancement can give a tendency to develop characters who gain loads of broad powers rather quickly.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with this. And its entirely fine for those who enjoy such things. But early gaming was made for character development over the course of years.

    The current game simply allowes for more power (via numbers and points) than was the norm in prior editions. The focus is then taken off story and instead placed on who's got the better ability build.

    Not that anyone can't ignore the tendency in a book, but as can be demonstrated at any gathering of gamers, people can get preoccupied with 'by the book.'


    Quote Originally Posted by A'koss
    Hmmm, I'm not sure I buy that (and I apologize in advance if this is getting OT). BD&D characters and AD&D characters are very much like superheroes as well. High level character could destroy entire towns of LL foes, fall from orbit, possess superhuman attributes, etc. You certainly have more options and "powers" in 3e to be sure, but I certainly wouldn't call the early edition characters "historical human archetypes" by comparison. They're all geared towards representing mythological and fantasy archetypes anyway.

    Just my 2 bits.

    A'koss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokamachi
    Hello, Gary,

    I hope all is well with you. I have a few Arneson related questions if you don't mind. I'm curious if you've had a chance to check out Dave Arneson's recent rerelease of the Blackmoor campaign and, if so, what you think of it.
    Things here are going reasonably well, thanks

    And as I am stretched trying to keep up with the work I should be doing, I have not had an opportunity to so much as glance at Dave's new material.

    There is also a release of Castle Blackmoor scheduled for September that touts itself as the first dungeon crawl ever created for D&D. I'm curioous, were you a participant in that first dungeon crawl? If so, what do you recall about it? Do you think it will draw the faithful to see what got it all started back then?
    without seein gthe material I can't say. Of course whatever it is, it wasn't created for D&D as the game wasn't written until I did that late in 1972

    It would seem that with Castle Blackmoor and Castle Zagyg on their way, the nostalgia for 'the good ol' days' seems to be stronger than ever. It must be nice to know that people are still interested in your creations after such a long time has passed.
    Dave has a leg up on me, as I havemn't been able to make much progress with the castle and dungeon levels

    Anyway, I'm looking forward to Hall of Many Panes and Zagyg with much interest. Hope they come off the press as smotthly and as timely as possible.

    All the best,

    Jokamachi
    The HoMP is all finished and on the shop shelves I do believe. I have two of the boxed sets here.

    Darlene is putting the finishing touches on the maps for Castle Zagyg, Yggsburgh. Menatime the Trolls are editing and laying out the text, putting in the illustrations. they hope to have it ready for GenCon, but my map ocrrections might have bollocked that up

    Cheers,
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

    Darlene is putting the finishing touches on the maps for Castle Zagyg, Yggsburgh. Menatime the Trolls are editing and laying out the text, putting in the illustrations. they hope to have it ready for GenCon, but my map ocrrections might have bollocked that up

    Cheers,
    Gary
    Gen Con still look's easily doable. The Lake Geneva event may be a bit sticky though.
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranes
    Hello Gary,

    That remark tickled me, because it reminded me of a conversation I had with a gaming buddy over twenty years ago. He was a big comic book fan, as well as being a great gamer. One day, he prevailed upon me to play a superhero game (I can't remember which) but I was having none of it. I had fond memories of reading Spider-Man when my years were still in single digits and that's where I wanted to leave it.

    "But in a game of D&D you're basically playing a superhero!" He argued. I thought he had a good point, too. Still never got me to play a comic-based RPG though.
    Howdy!

    The comparison is innacurate, I think. the same could be said of virtually any RPG where the character is assumed to be well above the average person. There is a much different temper behing the two genres, of course, as there is between each different RPG genrs.

    Sorry to get all anecdotal. Can I make amends by returning to the point of the thread and asking you a question? Please forgive me if you've answered it already and I missed it.

    If you were to run a game (of anything you like, of course) for a hypothetical group of players uncontaminated by previous exposure to any published modules, which one would you most consider refereeing again?

    Thanks
    Happy to answer.

    for a quick one-shot adventure I love the Abduction of Good King Despot

    If I have a group that is able in AD&D, I'd take them through the G and D series with great relish.

    A newbie group of gamers used to classed-based systems would be mete for the Yggsburgh setting.

    A group wanting to try their hand at skill-based gaming would find me LMing the Lejendary Road module by Jon Creffield.

    If I had such a group that was experienced, needed to be amused for many sessions I'd plunge them into the Hall of many Panes.

    The choices are made based heavily on my familiarity with the material to be presented to the player group

    Cheers,
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by A'koss
    Hmmm, I'm not sure I buy that (and I apologize in advance if this is getting OT). BD&D characters and AD&D characters are very much like superheroes as well. High level character could destroy entire towns of LL foes, fall from orbit, possess superhuman attributes, etc. You certainly have more options and "powers" in 3e to be sure, but I certainly wouldn't call the early edition characters "historical human archetypes" by comparison. They're all geared towards representing mythological and fantasy archetypes anyway.

    Just my 2 bits.

    A'koss.
    Pardon,

    That is parsing words. The mythological and fantasy archetypes are very human, quite mortal save for some of their magical attributes, mostly gained through brave deeds. Robin Hood, Lancelot, Sir Roland, and the host of examples in fairy tales told by Andrew Lang, even Fafhed and the Gray Mouser and Harold Shea are very much human, within normal human mental and physical bounds. Conan has marvelous strength, bit is is at best preternatural.

    Superheroes are generally superior species or mutats, or else rely on fantastic science to be vastly superior to all but others of their ilk. Their purpose is different from the fantasy RPG norm as well, although in fantasy one can move to any extreme and remain within the bounds of the genre. The main difference is the miindset of the game and those that play.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by gideon_thorne
    I think the main difference here lay in a matter of focus.
    Temper of the game design, mindset of the players, focus of play. that is an excellent addition, thank you very much!

    Cheers,
    Gary

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