Gary Gygax Q&A, Part IX - Page 82




What's on your mind?

  1. #811
    Registered User
    Novice (Lvl 1)

    bolen's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    201 w fulton grand rapids MI
    Posts
    1,140

    Ignore bolen
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh


    That's essentially correct, the game being Chainmail using th "Man-to-Man" rules. What with command figures and the rules, individual figure play was not startling. When heroes, superheroes, and wizards were considered in the "Fantasy supplement," the concept of a player with but a single figure on the table born. I would use my point buys to take a superhero in magic armor, with a magic sword, backed up by a wizard with fireball spells. The superhero would assail the mass of enemy troops, and when they gathered round to attack him the wizard would drop a fireball on the lot. The superhero was very likely to come out unscathed, much to the fury of my opponents.


    Well, with what's above, and what I ahve passed along regarding the initial and final drafts of the game that became D&D, the story is pretty well told.


    Cheers,
    Gary
    Thanks for the quick reply but I still am wondering

    It still seems a large leap from a game where you point buy a gladiator and I point puy a gladiator and we roll dice to see who wins. To a game where you had a DM creating a story and you had goals to accomplish as a group and there was no Wining or loosing (although I guess dying is loosing and incidentally you did a good job of killing my party when I just took them through Necropolis)

    At what point did you the DM and player quit being opponets and fit into the roles we see them today?
    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and concientious stupidity--

    Martin Luther King


    I have moved to Bowling Green KY, if you game there drop me a note at
    http://www.enworld.org/showthread.ph...15#post2227915

 

  • #812
    Registered User
    Gallant (Lvl 3)

    A'koss's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,855

    Ignore A'koss
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh
    How about this:

    A 15th level PC in AD&D requires years of gaming, and when arriving at thay level the character is generally retired.
    Well, for the typical gamer, it probably still takes years to get a character that high... But then, for guys like us who play a lot more often, there are rules in place to slow advancement to a more comfortable level. Also, mortality rates are pretty high in 3e, especially when you consider all the crits and the save or die stuff that you don't have the luxury of making your save on a 2.

    In new D&D arriving at that level takes a mere few months, and that PC is nothing compared to the half-dragon/half-vampire multi-prestige class one that the kid next door stomps around the campaign world with
    Heh... true, but that is really a campaign issue though. And let's be honest here, didn't we all experiment playing "dragonmen", vampires, lycanthropes, githyanki and other exotic monster characters in AD&D?

    Cheers!

    A'koss.

  • #813
    Father of the Game
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Col_Pladoh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    4,756

    Ignore Col_Pladoh
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz
    With all due respect, Col., I suspect that has more to do with the campaigns than the system. I remember back before I was cured of Munchkinism (1979-81), PCs in our campaigns would gain 2-3 levels a session. Soon, the very gods trembled at our footsteps...

    In fact, I just ran a 3Ed campaign where the first magic weapon wasn't awarded until 3rd level...and it was the only magic item the party had until 5th level. And this wasn't a low magic campaign. (Lets just say it had things in common with the Slave Lords modules.)
    Of course poor DMing can account for many anomalies. that said, it is the game rules that tell. If one follows them, then progress in AD&D is slow, in new D&D rapid. the team spirit of AD&D is gone, as the emphasis is on individual progress in the new game. Experience is aimed at seek and destroy power gaming. Of course, AD&D wasn't much better in that regard, but a revision shuld have corrected that flaw

    Anyway, a debate of this sort is profitless, and hereafter i shall refrain from further comments in regards such matters.

    Cheers,
    Gary

  • #814
    Registered User
    Lama (Lvl 13)



    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Decatur, AL
    Posts
    2,995

    Ignore JRRNeiklot
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by A'koss
    Indeed. However, that's neither here nor there as D&D has never, ever, been geared to model these archetypes in the way you're suggesting. D&D character have always been able to vastly exceed the capabilities of the figures you mention. Could any of them fall from orbit, get up, dust themselves off and continue soldiering on? You could never model the armorless characters in D&D without either being a monk or with the aid of magic. And speaking of armor, in the early editions, you could quite literally have an AC so low that you were completely invulnerable to the attacks of LL beings. A high level AD&D fighter with a -8 AC could waltz all over a LL army with complete impunity. It wouldn't matter if they could fire 200,000 arrows/rd on his location. D&D characters do not tire, nor do they suffer any detrimental effects of injury until they are KO'd or dead.

    Again, 3e does give you a lot more powers/options, no question, but I don't see that earlier edition characters were any more "human". Not in any way that really mattered.

    Cheers!




    A'koss.
    What kind of game where you playing?

    At1d6 per 10 feet fallen, what 9d10 hit point fighter could survive a fall from orbit? And wasn't falling damage originally exponential? Ie, 1d6 for 10 feet, 2d6 for then next ten for a total of 3d6 for 20 feet?

    200,000 arrows = 1,000 hits on average, assuming you'd need a 20 to hit. What AD&D character can take 1,000 d6 damage?

    And an armorless character in a medieval period is quite stupid, as he will be destroyed by the guy in armor, so I think it models it quiite well. Try picking up a stick and hitting your buddy dressed in full football pads and helmet, while he does the same to you while you wear jeans and a t-shirt. Sure, you might get lucky and bop him in the knee, but he can hurt you by hitting you ANYWHERE. And plate mail even had substabtial coverage of joints, weaker coverage, maybe, but better than nothing. You can always play an unarmored fighter, though, as long as he's an archer.

    I'm no expert on medieval warfare by any means, but c'mon, what kid hasn't had backyard fights with wiffle ball bats and football helmets? Garbage can lids make excellent shields, btw. :-)

  • #815
    Registered User
    Lama (Lvl 13)



    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Decatur, AL
    Posts
    2,995

    Ignore JRRNeiklot
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by A'koss

    Heh... true, but that is really a campaign issue though. And let's be honest here, didn't we all experiment playing "dragonmen", vampires, lycanthropes, githyanki and other exotic monster characters in AD&D?

    Cheers!

    A'koss.
    Nope!

  • #816
    Father of the Game
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Col_Pladoh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    4,756

    Ignore Col_Pladoh
    Quote Originally Posted by bolen
    Thanks for the quick reply but I still am wondering

    It still seems a large leap from a game where you point buy a gladiator and I point puy a gladiator and we roll dice to see who wins. To a game where you had a DM creating a story and you had goals to accomplish as a group and there was no Wining or loosing (although I guess dying is loosing and incidentally you did a good job of killing my party when I just took them through Necropolis)

    At what point did you the DM and player quit being opponets and fit into the roles we see them today?
    Sorry!

    I had assumed you were familiar with military miniatures. In most such games players are represented by a command figure, supplied with a past events history, the current situation, an order of battle, and objectives leading to mission success, the goal of play. The manner of execution is left to the players, of course.

    In short there is a story and a "quest" concerned with most miniatures games. In miniatures campaigns, there are many scenarios, each possibly altered by the results of past actions. Furthermore, such campaigns usually involve economics, political intregue, building, and considerable planning.

    In many of the games I played the Judge/Referee would also command some or all of the opposing forces, although sometimes he would be less directly involved and mainly ajudicate disputes, bring in occasional random events.

    All of those are part of the PRG form. so the imagined leap is more like a hop when one considers children;s games of Let's Pretend and Cops & Robbersas much of the basis for the game form's foundation

    Cheers,
    Gary

  • #817
    Registered User
    Novice (Lvl 1)

    bolen's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    201 w fulton grand rapids MI
    Posts
    1,140

    Ignore bolen
    My communities:

    thanks for answering
    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and concientious stupidity--

    Martin Luther King


    I have moved to Bowling Green KY, if you game there drop me a note at
    http://www.enworld.org/showthread.ph...15#post2227915

  • #818
    Father of the Game
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Col_Pladoh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    4,756

    Ignore Col_Pladoh
    Quote Originally Posted by A'koss
    ...

    ... And let's be honest here, didn't we all experiment playing "dragonmen", vampires, lycanthropes, githyanki and other exotic monster characters in AD&D?

    Cheers!

    A'koss.
    Never happened in any campaign I ever ran, and none of the DMs I knew allowed such stuff either.

    Of course there were those young power gamers who took my April Fools' joke character class, the Ultimist seriously and asked for more details

    Cheers,
    Gary

  • #819
    Father of the Game
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Col_Pladoh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    4,756

    Ignore Col_Pladoh
    Quote Originally Posted by bolen
    thanks for answering
    Most cordially welcome, sir!

    And now as the sun is below the yardarm it is time for a refreshing libation and a bit of casual reading on my front porch

    Ciao,
    Gary

  • #820
    Registered User
    Gallant (Lvl 3)

    A'koss's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,855

    Ignore A'koss
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by JRRNeiklot
    What kind of game where you playing?
    Heh...AD&D, which clearly you don't remember much about...

    At1d6 per 10 feet fallen, what 9d10 hit point fighter could survive a fall from orbit? And wasn't falling damage originally exponential? Ie, 1d6 for 10 feet, 2d6 for then next ten for a total of 3d6 for 20 feet?
    Nope.

    1d6/10', 20d6 max.

    200,000 arrows = 1,000 hits on average, assuming you'd need a 20 to hit. What AD&D character can take 1,000 d6 damage?
    Nope.

    No N20 hits in AD&D.

    And an armorless character in a medieval period is quite stupid, as he will be destroyed by the guy in armor, so I think it models it quiite well.
    However, how many mythological and fantasy characters (that is, the kind of characters D&D is supposed to model) run around in nothing but their non-magical clothes or a simple loincloth *cough*Conan*cough*?

    Cheers!

    A'koss.

  • + Log in or register to post
    Page 82 of 224 FirstFirst ... 32727374757677787980818283848586878889909192132182 ... LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Gary Gygax Q&A: Part XII
      By Col_Pladoh in forum Archive-threads
      Replies: 904
      Last Post: Tuesday, 10th April, 2007, 09:00 PM
    2. Gary Gygax Q&A: Part XI
      By Col_Pladoh in forum Archive-threads
      Replies: 518
      Last Post: Thursday, 17th August, 2006, 09:30 PM
    3. Gary Gygax Q&A: Part X
      By Tuzenbach in forum Archive-threads
      Replies: 484
      Last Post: Thursday, 6th July, 2006, 08:39 PM
    4. Gary Gygax Q&A: part VII
      By grodog in forum General RPG Discussion
      Replies: 490
      Last Post: Sunday, 20th February, 2005, 04:02 PM
    5. Gary Gygax Q&A, Part V
      By grodog in forum Archive-threads
      Replies: 213
      Last Post: Thursday, 4th March, 2004, 01:24 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •