Input wanted on my Bard-barian (Core only)

calypso15 · Apr 20, 2005

Hey guys, I might be playing in a Greyhawk game soon, using core (SRD) only. We're starting at 5th level, and the group needs a good tank/meleer.

So, my current idea is a tribal warrior.

Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2

Alright, I know at this point you're scratching your head and asking WTF I was thinking. The reason for the bard levels is a) because I've wanted to play a bardbarian for a while now, and b) so I can qualify for Dragon Disciple. I figure I'll have a pair of drums made of animal skins drawn taught over orc skulls.

So anyway, my plan is a Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2.

Stats:

Str: 18 (17 base, +1 at 4th)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 13
Cha: 14

Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.

Spells:
0: Who cares
1: Expeditious Retreat, Featherfall

Skills will focus on survival/combat. I plan to have Handle Animal and have a trained dog, as well as a pack mule. heheh.

Anyway, so thoughts? Ideas for a different direction completely?

Calypso

Diirk · Apr 20, 2005

Bard 4/Barbarian 1. You should probably do bard -> barb -> bard 3 so you get the large number of starting skill points from bard. This way you get 2nd level spells, plus better will/reflex saves. You lose 2 feats, but heroism, cure moderate wounds etc are quite worthwhile. Same BAB as the bard/fighter/barb too.

sukael · Apr 20, 2005

Actually, I rather like it.

EDIT: Woo! Simulpost. Agreement with Diirk, also.

calypso15 · Apr 20, 2005

Diirk said:
Bard 4/Barbarian 1. You should probably do bard -> barb -> bard 3 so you get the large number of starting skill points from bard. This way you get 2nd level spells, plus better will/reflex saves. You lose 2 feats, but heroism, cure moderate wounds etc are quite worthwhile. Same BAB as the bard/fighter/barb too.

Well, I initially considered this very build, but the low HP are a real killer. 6+1d12+3d6+15 (average of 38) compared to 12+2d10+2d6+15 (average of 45). Of course, the extra skill points would be nice, so if I did 6+1d12+2d10+1d6+15, that's an average of 42. I suppose the extra 8 skill points could be worth losing 3 hp.

Calypso

two · Apr 20, 2005

Looks like a fun build.

Note that with Bard4 you get 2nd level spells and Alter Self is the premier Bardbarian buffing spell.

Turn into trog form for +6 natural armor (hello AC!) and 3 attack if you want them (natural weapons) and some racial feats that help when using multiple attacks.

Long term buff too.

AC might be 2 (dex) +1 (dodge) + 6 (+1 mithrial breastplate) + 2 (+1 mithral buckler) + 6 (alter self) = 24. Pretty OK.

Bront · Apr 20, 2005

two said:
AC might be 2 (dex) +1 (dodge) + 6 (+1 mithrial breastplate) + 2 (+1 mithral buckler) + 6 (alter self) = 24. Pretty OK.

Bard can't wear Medium armor without spell failure. Of course, if you drop it to a chain shirt, you only loose 1 point of AC, and no spell failure, AND move 10 faster.

I think the Bardbarian could be a lot of fun. I think you're better off with the extra bard levels over the fighter levels (More true to the concept too). Don't forget the "Free" bardic knowledge skill. One of the most usefull find all knowledge skills out there, and perhaps one of the best reasons to be a bard.

two · Apr 20, 2005

Bront said:
Bard can't wear Medium armor without spell failure. Of course, if you drop it to a chain shirt, you only loose 1 point of AC, and no spell failure, AND move 10 faster.

I think the Bardbarian could be a lot of fun. I think you're better off with the extra bard levels over the fighter levels (More true to the concept too). Don't forget the "Free" bardic knowledge skill. One of the most usefull find all knowledge skills out there, and perhaps one of the best reasons to be a bard.

Unless I'm smoking something naughty, mithral breastplate IS light armor, as is mithral chain.

Diirk · Apr 20, 2005

Yeah mithril breastplate is light. Note that while the bard 4/barb 1 combo does have alot less hp, you make alot of that up with DD levels, which are d12 HD and gives con boosts. And with the ability to heal yourself, you are often (tho not always) better off.

kjenks · Apr 20, 2005

If your DM says SRD, that may include psionics, so your bard-barian might want to take some cross-class ranks in Autohypnosis for some pretty cool tough-guy-can-shrug-off-anything abilities (Ignore caltrop wound, Resist dying, Resist fear, Tolerate poison, Willpower and that non-tough-guy ability, Memorize, which is pretty nice for a bard-barian).

As a melee bard, you'll want Concentration anyway, and five ranks there gives you a +2 synergy on Autohypnosis. You'll also want a big Use Magic Device total, so pump up your Spellcraft and Decipher Script for synergies.

The feat chain of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack doesn't really play out too well at high levels, where you do a whole lot more damage with a full attack.

Alternative feats to consider: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Magical Aptitude, Combat Expertise/Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple or even Mounted Combat/Ride-by Attack/Spirited Charge.

Improved Disarm is especially nice for a bard-barian with a high Use Magic Device total. Use a scroll of True Strike (+20) then Improved Disarm (+4) with a whip (+2), using it two-handed (+4, per the FAQ rules), for +30 to your opposed disarm roll, on top of your BAB and Strength. No foe keeps a weapon for long against that kind of attack. But you can do this trick without Improved Disarm, too.

Disarm from 10 ft. away to avoid an AoO. After you disarm a weapon, 5 ft. step up next to your opponent (free action) then use your 5 ft. reach to reach into his square and pick up the weapon (move action, provokes AoO). You might be able to do all of this in one round.

Consider a scroll of True Strike before a mounted lance charge, with two-handed Power Attack all the way. With your BAB and Str, that would be +27 attack (masterwork lance), 2d8+32 damage. That's a pretty big ouchy for level 5. Even more if you rage (but you can't Use Magic Device while raging, so UMD first then rage second).

UMD a scroll of Shield (25 gp) so your AC won't suck completely when wielding your weapon two-handed. Or, since SRD includes psionics, UMD a power stone of Force Screen for the same effect. A psionic tattoo is even better, but costs 50 gp per use instead of 25. A scroll of Mirror Image is better still, but costs 150 gp.

If your DM gives you a hard time about gaining access to buy disposable magic items, propose that you could use your Gather Information skill to find people willing to sell them and work with him to find a good process for doing that in his campaign.

calypso15 · Apr 20, 2005

Thanks for all the input. The general consensus seems to be that Bard 4/Barbarian 1 is the way to go, so I'm looking at that now. I fear that I'm going to be woefully short of skill points for all the things I want/need.

For feats, what about Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Improved Bull Rush?

Calypso

EDIT: That should have been Greataxe, as per my first post