3.5 Stat Blocks Kill my creativity

Kelleris said:

That's not true. I and several others have suggested ways that we employ more-or-less finished statblocks in our games. And there's a huge and interesting range between "doesn't use statblocks" and "every one of my NPCs are completely statted out."

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"Huge and interesting range"? Can't wait to see it.

Though I do agree with your suggestion that making a mini-monster manual for one's campaign with average NPCs is a good idea - it's what I've been doing.

Does that stop statblocks from being a complete pain and complex, or result in a "huge and interesting range"? Not to me, it doesn't. (Note that I didn't say overly complex - I, personally, love the results I get from statblocks. 3e/d20 has allowed me to fully detail NPCs they way I always have envisioned them. Still a brutal pain, though.)

arnwyn said:

Somewhat telling that everyone who has said that "statblocks aren't so bad" or "I don't have a problem" is either using a $500+ computer plus software to generate statblocks, or simply "doesn't use statblocks". Nice.

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I don't have any problems with statblocks. I do use a computer to generate them, but the only software used is Word, Windows' built-in calculator, and Firefox to read the SRD in HTML format - no special D&D software a la PCGen or ETools.

Though it is slightly incorrect to say I'm using statblocks. Rather, I use the format from the MM - I find that to be far superior for use while gaming (much easier to find things in the "loose" format than in the dense statblock format). I have included an example of what my stuff looks like (Word file packed with WinRAR).

arnwyn said:

"Huge and interesting range"? Can't wait to see it.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear as to what I meant. On one end of the spectrum you have every single statblock completed for every NPC the characters deal with, and on the other hand you completely wing everything. Some points in the range between these two extremes:

1) You go with a mini-MM type set-up, where you deviate from set stats.

2) You stat out major enemies all the way, but improvise mooks.

3) You use some quick-NPC system, of varying degrees of complexity.

4) You stat out "hard" NPCs like spellcasters so you don't have to just pick spells from the PHB.

5) You get BAB, saves, hp, and key skills for every NPC, but just wing the items based on the situation.

And there are combinations of the above and various other possibilities as well.

arnwyn said:

Somewhat telling that everyone who has said that "statblocks aren't so bad" or "I don't have a problem" is either using a $500+ computer plus software to generate statblocks, or simply "doesn't use statblocks". Nice.

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If you have just about any computer, you can do what I do. I use:

http://www.aarg.net/~minam/npc2.cgi
http://www.aarg.net/~minam/npc.cgi

(There are offline versions, too.)

...and...

http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

I don't really have a problem with statting out my NPCs and I fully stat out most anything the PCs may face in combat. However, I don't go to the trouble of making the stats for the local blacksmith beyond relevant skills. I have yet to use any NPC generator or such, preferring to do everything on my own in word. The only thing I occasionally "cheat" on is skills, I just give them a rough guess on their skills points and a quick count on how many I spent. When 3rd edition first came out I memorized all the equations for Bab, saves, abilities, and skills. I find it took me about 15 minutes to create an epic NPC for my 25th level party, which can be plenty time consuming. Now, with my new campaign I find I can whip up a stat block in maybe five minutes. Personally, I like exploring all the combinations of feats, classes, PrC's, and such to create the ideal NPC, so it's probably just me.

arnwyn said:

Somewhat telling that everyone who has said that "statblocks aren't so bad" or "I don't have a problem" is either using a $500+ computer plus software to generate statblocks, or simply "doesn't use statblocks". Nice.

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Heh, heh,heh... I know somebody who does his stat blocks on a Commodore 64! (20 years old and still running...)

The sad thing is that I had enough fun with my C=64 that I wish I still had mine...

Might I also point out that this is a message board? That the people posting need to have a computer, if only to post? It is like a telemarketer coming to the conclusion that 100% of people in the U.S. have phones, because 100% of the people he telephoned had them... We have a biased cross section of the populace here...

The Auld Grump

One time-saving device I used in my last campaign was the "level-based skill bonuses" optional rule from the 3e Unearthed Arcana.

NPCs just know all their class skills -- they have a number of ranks equal to their level. They don't know any other skills (unless I use the feat that lets them treat a nonclass skill as a class skill).

That helped quite a bit.

(See -- I care about you 3e DMs! I'm not all about C&C...)

Akrasia said:

One time-saving device I used in my last campaign was the "level-based skill bonuses" optional rule from the 3e Unearthed Arcana.

NPCs just know all their class skills -- they have a number of ranks equal to their level. They don't know any other skills (unless I use the feat that lets them treat a nonclass skill as a class skill).

That helped quite a bit.

(See -- I care about you 3e DMs! I'm not all about C&C...)

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I tend to just choose one of two methods, unless I have a special purpose in mind for the NPC.

1. A number of class skills equal to the intelligence bonus get maxed out.

2. The number of skill points are divided equally among all class skills.

It still ends up being fast.

The Auld Grump, or 3. Jamis Buck comes to my rescue...

Completely by-the-book method of easy skill points that I always use is:

1) Choose number of skills equal to x + Int mod, where X is the SP/level granted by the class (clerics, for instance, have 2 + Int Mod)
2) These skills exist at maximum rank (level +3).

The problem is that as characters get higher level, they get very distinguished from one another -- a two high level fighters can have perversely different selections of abilities -- and some of these are very interesting and apt for the situation. This variety leads to a complexity that can be intimidating. This is why monsters are very very useful -- they're pre-statted, and pre-ability-generated out so that you know exactly what they can do and what they're likely to do. But not everyone likes throwing monsters at their party much.

Bryan898 said:

I don't really have a problem with statting out my NPCs and I fully stat out most anything the PCs may face in combat. However, I don't go to the trouble of making the stats for the local blacksmith beyond relevant skills. I have yet to use any NPC generator or such, preferring to do everything on my own in word. The only thing I occasionally "cheat" on is skills, I just give them a rough guess on their skills points and a quick count on how many I spent. When 3rd edition first came out I memorized all the equations for Bab, saves, abilities, and skills. I find it took me about 15 minutes to create an epic NPC for my 25th level party, which can be plenty time consuming. Now, with my new campaign I find I can whip up a stat block in maybe five minutes. Personally, I like exploring all the combinations of feats, classes, PrC's, and such to create the ideal NPC, so it's probably just me.

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" I find it took me about 15 minutes to create an epic NPC for my 25th level party, which can be plenty time consuming."

Sorry, but bull.

Seriously, you are full of it.

I think the problem is we are talking about two different things.

I'm not talking about figuring out the rough "to hit" value of a CR 25 fighter type. Or the number of attacks, or saves (within 1 or 2 points). That I agree can be done in 15 min., barely.

Nor am I even talking about the damage done per strike; although that starts to get complicated.

You can whip up a generic CR 25 NPC with the absolute minimum required stats in 15 minutes, maybe. But this isn't a full (or even a partial) stat block by any means, and worse yet:

The CR25 NPC you come up with will be totally cookie-cutter.

The NPC will be incredibly weak; unoptimized; slap-dash; and not much fun (I suspect) to pound into the ground.

What about magic items? You simply can't slap those together for a CR25 NPC. You must think about it; minimally, how did the fighter-type make it so high vs. high level magic? Does he specialize in anti-magic? Are his saves through the roof? Does he have other tricks?

What about movement? Ranged attacked? Flying? Ethereal perhaps? Skills? Don't get me started on feats -- how many feats does that CR25 fighter type have anyway? What about classes? Ranger2/Rogue2/Fighter21? Something else?

What about tactics? Ways to take on (for example) a run-of-the-mill 18th level wizard?

You simply can't put all this together in 15 min. Impossible. You just can't. At least, if you don't want all your NPC's to look, feel, act, and do the same things.

Seriously. And don't even get me started on a "low level" foe like a CR19 wizard. Even picking 15% of his spells will alone take 10 minutes, much less magic items for the wizard, writing down typical daily long-lasting buffs, tacticals, etc.

Nope. In 15 min. you have not created a CR25 challenge. You have slapped together a few numbers and made an animated construct (cookie, subtype: gingerbread).