Player's build is to strong?

Remember 2nd edition?

Thanee said:

A good general rule is to limit PCs to a total of three classes (including Prestige Classes).

Exceptions can be made, if the background concept calls for it (DM decision).

Bye
Thanee

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Way back in old 2nd edition there was this thing called the triple class. These characters could also have a "kit" to go on top of that to add even more stuff to their character. And they were not overpowered becasue past level 10 they advanced super slow so they never got to the really high powered abilities. Now that we are in 3rd edition and muliclassing has been made very easy, it is still simple to build a character that has 3 classes, and hence fit into 2 or even 3 prestige classes. Sure they will have lots of low level abilities, but that really is okay. Just because someone needs to take a breath in between class names does not mean they are doing something wrong or bad. (as a side note I think the above build is nuts and tends more towards trying to bend the rules than build a character)
I like to stick up for the many-classed characters because I am curently playing a warforged diviner 2 / fighter 5 / urban ranger 1 / devoted defender 2 who only has 2 more levels till he can also pick up spellsword. I have played this PC from level 1 (he is now 10th) and have a great time. He is effectively a triple class that has 2 PrC's that are based of 2 combinations of classes (fighter+urban ranger = devoted defender, and fighter + diviner = spellsword).

Some more examples of real and effective many-classed characters are:
Fighter/bard/ranger/rogue
Fighter/wizard/cleric/mystic theurge/spellsword
Fighter/Wizard/rogue/arcane trickster/eldarich knight

These should be allowed and even encouraged if someone likes to get low level abilities in a very high level character. It can be alot of fun. Of course none of these builds will get you 9th level spells in two classes and 4 attacks per round. Thats just wrong. Anyone who trys to get away with that sort of mess is smoken the dope.

apesamongus said:

Or better yet, Player-specific prestige classes.

I find it really odd for people to talk about making a character that makes sense or that follows a character concept only needing to take a few classes, when I find the exact opposite is true. When I see players try to make a character fit a concept they have to end up struggling and taking a half dozen classes, because many abilities that might be important to a concept might be buried inside a PrC and found nowhere else. If you treat PrCs as anything except another bundled skillset (and thereby limit dabbling), then you effectively put character concept at odds with the ability to model that concept within the rules.

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If a player is really having such a hard time meeting his 'concept' for a character and needs that many classes, then my gut reaction is to tell that player to rethink his concept. It's clearly too nebulous, diffuse, or in general need of editing down to essentials.

Storm Raven said:

I'm thinking your reasoning doesn't make any sense.

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I hope you have fun in your game! I do in mine
-blarg

Saeviomagy said:

Yeah, so that immediately disqualifies anyone there from being able to roleplay. How about you use the term rollplayer and then start talking about nazis, so we can end this thread right quick...

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Read again what I said. Info printed on wotc's books, errata, faqs, and the like makes a thing official. Optimization boards are for "builds" and are not concentrated on the roleplaying area which we all know.
And your reply is leading... Give your opinion... State your case... But PROVOKE A FIGHT between any member/community, you break the board's rules.

I get a whole load of definitions, several of which support my position. Moreover, a google search of "this form of" gets me a whole load of references using "this form of" to mean "this type of", meaning that the former is a subcategory of the latter. Other searches on similar sentence fragments (like "a form of") get similar results.

ie - P.O. is a subcategory of evasion.

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You need Evasion (as the prerequisites stated in the FL), not evasion-like abilities/subcategory/essense of/.....

Perhaps you are right on another meaning of "form" that is "subcategory". Let's wait for an ERRATA release from the said sites.

The stuff about heavier armour and evasion is just waffle. Nowhere is it said that evasion has anything to do with stealth.

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If your point is correct btw, rogues/monks/rangers have foresight too like the D.O.'s Prescient Sense?
My bad on the stealth word since it's pertains to the "act of hiding or avoiding detection". "Quickness in action" or "agility" sound more suited.

At a guess, the build starts with 4 bard, one druid in any order. HE THEN LOSES FAITH IN HIS GOD and becomes an ur priest for a couple of levels. He is cursed by a vision from his old deity and goes on with divine oracle. Having had run-ins with dragons (and who doesn't?), he picks up dragonslayer (not sure of those prereqs though...). He dabbles with his bardic music a bit more and takes sublime chord. Finally he rounds out his unique talents with fochlucan lyrist - he is indeed masterfully skilful, his reknown is widely known, his talents great. Why wouldn't they accept him? Why wouldn't he want to learn from the best?

In short - all justifiable. Whether this will all actually happen in game is another story.

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If you became an Ur Priest you would lose the benefits of the D.O. The deity would strip you of his blessing/curse. You can't take the F.L. (and the sublime chord since you would not have enough caster levels on the arcane side). And your prized prescient sense would also be gone (so debating if it can pass as evasion would be useless then).

If you became an Ur Priest you would lose the benefits of the D.O. The deity would strip you of his blessing/curse.

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Not necessarily. It doesn't state anywhere in the D.O. prereqs that you must have a deity, much like a cleric doesn't need to have a deity to learn his spells. The D.O. could get his abilities from another source much like a cleric. Then the character idea could be that he not only gains power from another source, perphaps where the god's themselves get their power, but decides to begin tapping into the power source and stealing it from the gods themselves.

I don't see the problems with people taking multiple prestige classes or following many paths as long as there is good reason. If for example, I had a character that was a Purple Dragon Knight (the PrC), and after a few levels had a falling out with the order, I wouldn't expect to have to continue in the PrC. Sometimes it is more logical to change your goals and path to conform to changes that occur in the story.

Also, I have a character who likes to min-max, though he does RP. That's part of his enjoyment in the game, making powerful characters. He doesn't ruin the game for anyone, any character will have their share of weaknesses, and since most of the other players aren't extremely concerned with being the most bad-assed he doesn't ruin their fun. Min-maxing is a type of play, and if it's what makes a character happy, why not allow it while trying to role-play as well? The point of the game is to have fun after all, not be "teh best roleplayer".

Bryan898 said:

Not necessarily. It doesn't state anywhere in the D.O. prereqs that you must have a deity, much like a cleric doesn't need to have a deity to learn his spells. The D.O. could get his abilities from another source much like a cleric. Then the character idea could be that he not only gains power from another source, perphaps where the god's themselves get their power, but decides to begin tapping into the power source and stealing it from the gods themselves.

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Deities will appear on the prerequisites if a PrC is specifically designed to a particular deity(s) alone. Radiant servant of Pelor and the Temple Raider of Olidammara are good examples. If you would read the whole entry on the D.O; you would notice that it is designed for the deity worshippers/believers. It even suggested that this PrC should be limited to the deity of time, fate, or divination.

I don't see the problems with people taking multiple prestige classes or following many paths as long as there is good reason. If for example, I had a character that was a Purple Dragon Knight (the PrC), and after a few levels had a falling out with the order, I wouldn't expect to have to continue in the PrC. Sometimes it is more logical to change your goals and path to conform to changes that occur in the story.

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I also agree in having multiple PrC's, yes even min/maxing, but there is a limit. Like you said it must be within good reason. And what good are prerequisites if no one follows them?

Also, I have a character who likes to min-max, though he does RP. That's part of his enjoyment in the game, making powerful characters. He doesn't ruin the game for anyone, any character will have their share of weaknesses, and since most of the other players aren't extremely concerned with being the most bad-assed he doesn't ruin their fun. Min-maxing is a type of play, and if it's what makes a character happy, why not allow it while trying to role-play as well? The point of the game is to have fun after all, not be "teh best roleplayer".

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Seems to me that you're a good dm in balancing encounters and particularly a great player who does not horde all the glory where there is diversity in the "builds". More power on your campaign.