Comfort withcross gender characters based on your gender

Thomas Bowman said:

Generally I play D&D to get away from real world politics, not delve into it.
It is easier to suspend my disbelieve when dealing with imaginary characters. I don't expect players to put on wizard robes or to wear armor at the gaming table, I prefer to use my imagination that to see things and people in costumes with props. My imagination has better costumes and special effects that whatever a player may bring to the gaming table. I don't much like miniatures on maps either. I like to imagine a bunch of characters moving through a dungeon corridor, that to move pieces on a map.

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But, that's my point. How can you "imagine a bunch of characters moving through a dungeon corridor" if you actually have no idea what some of those characters actually look like? Like, for example, Bob's character being female. I agree that D&D is all about imagination. But, imagination is all well and good until what you imagine and what I'm imagining don't line up. It causes break downs in communication. And, conversely, if your imagining your character one way, but, not actually presenting that at the table, how do you expect me to be able to imagine anything close to what you are imagining?

Hussar said:

But, that's my point. How can you "imagine a bunch of characters moving through a dungeon corridor" if you actually have no idea what some of those characters actually look like? Like, for example, Bob's character being female. I agree that D&D is all about imagination. But, imagination is all well and good until what you imagine and what I'm imagining don't line up. It causes break downs in communication. And, conversely, if your imagining your character one way, but, not actually presenting that at the table, how do you expect me to be able to imagine anything close to what you are imagining?

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Because fundamentally their visual appearance is irrelevant to their mathematics. An elf is an elf not by its pointy ears, but by it's +2 dex, -2 con and low-light vision.

You don't need to know what the Queen in chess actually looks like. Only how it can move on the board.

Riley37 said:

/snip

https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...ying-glass-to-the-brown-faces-in-medieval-art

https://www.historians.org/publicat...lems-in-studying-the-role-of-blacks-in-europe

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Those are some fascinating links. Especially the People of Color in European Art. Interesting stuff.

Sunseeker said:

Because fundamentally their visual appearance is irrelevant to their mathematics. An elf is an elf not by its pointy ears, but by it's +2 dex, -2 con and low-light vision.

You don't need to know what the Queen in chess actually looks like. Only how it can move on the board.

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I think that's what I was obliquely referencing. It's roll play vs role play. If the only thing elven about your character is stat bonus and the ability to see in the dark, that's pretty poor role play, IMO.

The Witcher RPG was mentioned as having push back for not having art that is inclusive. In all honesty, I haven't been following it at all, and I have no opinion on that particular issue. I simply don't know anything about it.

But, I am running a campaign using Sasquatch Games Primeval Thule setting. Now, here's a setting set in a "savage lands" type setting, heavily influenced by the pulps. It includes a major city state which is primarily peopled by black humans. Ok, fair enough. There's some inclusivity. But, I just skimmed through my Primeval Thule Campaign Setting pdf. 273 pages long filled with lots of pretty darn good art.

Exactly one image that clearly shows a person of color. Dozens of images of steely thewed white dudes with their shirts off swinging various implements of war and one and only one image showing anyone who isn't white. And it's not like this was published ages ago. PT has only been around for about ten years or less. Granted, there are a number of images of women, and more than a few of warrior women and chainmail bikinis are not really to be seen. So, kudos for that. But, in a setting where you are supposed to be filled with tribal cultures in a fantasy version of Greenland, you'd think you'd see a couple of people that weren't blond and blue eyed.

So, if you think that it's entirely unreasonable that groups are agitating for more inclusivity, I think you really aren't looking very hard at the art that's still coming out in RPG books. We've come a long way, but, we've still got some ways to go.

Hussar said:

I think that's what I was obliquely referencing. It's roll play vs role play. If the only thing elven about your character is stat bonus and the ability to see in the dark, that's pretty poor role play, IMO.

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Some people enjoy more strict roll play.

Riley37 said:

This is annoying, but not actually a problem, because if *you* order the pizza, you remain free to order pizza which doesn't have pineapple on it.

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Unless, as is the case, those 'smug in their righteousness' are trying to make it illegal, or at least socially unacceptable, to make a pizza without pineapple.

Do you have a version of the metaphor which includes the distinction between people expressing an opinion, and people actually constraining someone's behavior?

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The homophobic makers of wedding cakes have been compelled to accept and make cakes for gays.

(You say there were no black people in Poland at the time, as if that were a well-established historical fact. There are some historians who disagree, see note below.)

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You do realize that when you're discussing a population percentage of less than 0.01% it is okay to say 'none'? As in, statistically speaking, there were no blacks in Poland during the late medieval and early renaissance.

Or, to quote your sources, "There were a few hundred blacks spread across German, Scandinavia, and Russia...". No mention of Poland, but I accept there may have been a few in Poland.

This means, it's okay to make a game set in fantasy (or even historic) Poland with no blacks. Further, The Witcher is specifically about Polish culture and folklore... so even if the percentage were to be a whopping whole 1%, it would still be okay to exclude them from game. Further more, the game is based on the books... so...they stayed true to the source.

One of Larry Correia's fans recently raised the question, on Correia's site, of how to harass Green Ronin at Origins; is anyone doing anything like that to CD Projekt? Is anyone treating them the way Team Milo treated Leslie Jones?

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Yes. CDPR has been the victim of a campaign of hate from the CNTRL Left.

And from the gaming 'news' media (I know redundant, they mostly are part of the CNTRL Left). Just google "the witcher no blacks".

Wait, are you seriously accusing Samuel Delany, or Gene Roddenberry, or more recently John Scalzi and GRR Martin (major opponents of Sad/Rabid Puppies), or anyone at WotC or Paizo, of black supremacism?

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Heavy sigh...

Wait, Scalzi? Hmmm. Maybe. I haven't had much dealings with his personal politics aside from Sad Puppies... He might be an intersectional feminist.

Footnote: how white Medieval Europe was, and also Britain, across a range of terrain (Iberia to Poland) and centuries (13th != 15th).

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There is plenty of racism in Poland. It's just white skinned folk versus white skinned folk. Because, that's the breakdown of race in Poland, 99.999% white folk. Which is part of The Witcher series is about (the elves and dwarves stand in for other white races in The Witcher).

Hussar said:

I think that's what I was obliquely referencing. It's roll play vs role play. If the only thing elven about your character is stat bonus and the ability to see in the dark, that's pretty poor role play, IMO.

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Yes, let us round up all the badwrongfun roll-players and treat them appropriately.

Hussar said:

In all honesty, I haven't been following it at all, and I have no opinion on that particular issue. I simply don't know anything about it.

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So why mention it?

Oh wait, I see it's for a sloppy segue...

But, I am running a campaign using Sasquatch Games Primeval Thule setting.

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Ah, yes. The most northern of the north, which should be the most Scandinavian of settings... the type of setting an aware person would expect to be overflowing with white people...

But, I just skimmed through my Primeval Thule Campaign Setting pdf. 273 pages long filled with lots of pretty darn good art.

Exactly one image that clearly shows a person of color.

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Sigh.

But, in a setting where you are supposed to be filled with tribal cultures in a fantasy version of Greenland, you'd think you'd see a couple of people that weren't blond and blue eyed.

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Oh okay, I get it. You want more Inuits! I agree.

Damn them for hewing true to Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith's vision of Thule...


Imagine if someone made the game When We Kings, set in mythic Wakanda and some 'woke' person came along and complained "But where are all the Hispanics!"

So, if you think that it's entirely unreasonable that groups are agitating for more inclusivity...

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To them I say "Be the change you want to see". Make the game you want to play. Create the D&D, Rolemaster, Runescape, HERO, GURPS, etc, setting you want to play in. Get art for it you want to see. Publish it.*

If there is a market for it, it will do well and become the forward progress you desire.

But don't demand all [-]pizzas[/-] rpgs have to have [-]pineapple[/-] your PoC of choice [-]on[/-] in it.



* I mean if FATAL can become a published† game, I swear by ZOD anything can.

† For various definitions of published.

Hussar said:

But, that's my point. How can you "imagine a bunch of characters moving through a dungeon corridor" if you actually have no idea what some of those characters actually look like? Like, for example, Bob's character being female. I agree that D&D is all about imagination. But, imagination is all well and good until what you imagine and what I'm imagining don't line up. It causes break downs in communication. And, conversely, if your imagining your character one way, but, not actually presenting that at the table, how do you expect me to be able to imagine anything close to what you are imagining?

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Whether his character is a man or a woman, it slays the monsters just the same. The D&D rules make no distinction between the sexes on their combat statistics, so a female fighter of the same level and combat abilities can slay a dragon just as easily as a male character could of the same race. If a character dons an item that changes his gender, it has absolutely no effect in combat situations according the D&D rules. Now in reality men on average are stronger than women, but the D&D rules don't reflect this fact, in the interest of fairness. Now if I want to imagine that a male player is playing a female fighter instead of a fighter of his own gender, the combat statistics don't reflect this fact, all he has is a sheet of paper.

However if you have an image like this one to represent a character

This could be a great help in getting it across that your character is a woman, even though the player playing her looks nothing like this! I must admit, I have a fondness for this character, I even created a character sheet for her.
I also liked these characters

of course being a male, I love pictures of pretty women, I could probably play them as a DM, while describing their actions in the third person as NPCs. As player characters representing them as myself would be much harder!

Sunseeker said:

Some people enjoy more strict roll play.

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And that's perfectly fair. No problems. Heck, I'm more than guilty of that myself. OTOH, I don't pretend that it's great role play though.

evileeyore said:

Yes, let us round up all the badwrongfun roll-players and treat them appropriately.

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Nope. But, let's not pretend that it's great role play either and take me to task for saying, "Hey, that's not great role play when you are roll playing". I mean, good grief, pretty soon I'll be in trouble for saying rain is wet.

So why mention it?

Oh wait, I see it's for a sloppy segue...

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I didn't think it was that sloppy, but, fair enough...

Ah, yes. The most northern of the north, which should be the most Scandinavian of settings... the type of setting an aware person would expect to be overflowing with white people...

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I don't know what your most northern of the north looks like, but, it sure as hell isn't white.

Sigh.


Oh okay, I get it. You want more Inuits! I agree.

Damn them for hewing true to Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith's vision of Thule...

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Well, if you're going to hew true to Howard and Lovecraft, then you should be ready to take some pushback for a lack of inclusivity. Both are known for some pretty rabid racism.

Imagine if someone made the game When We Kings, set in mythic Wakanda and some 'woke' person came along and complained "But where are all the Hispanics!"


To them I say "Be the change you want to see". Make the game you want to play. Create the D&D, Rolemaster, Runescape, HERO, GURPS, etc, setting you want to play in. Get art for it you want to see. Publish it.*

If there is a market for it, it will do well and become the forward progress you desire.

But don't demand all [-]pizza[/-] has to have [-]pineapple[/-] your PoC of choice [-]on[/-] in it.



* I mean if FATAL can become a published† game, I swear by ZOD anything can.

† For various definitions of published.

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Yes, because we shouldn't ever make any criticism ever of anything because someone likes it? Seriously? We aren't supposed to vote with our wallets at all? We should simply be silent and never say anything simply because someone else happens to like it? No thanks. I'm sorry if you feel put upon when something you happen to like is held up as an example of racism or misogyny but, maybe, just maybe, listening to why it's being held up might help. After all, in Primeval Thule, a significant percentage of the population of Thule IS BLACK. An entire NATION of black people live on the Thule continent. But, apparently, it's bad to actually show that in the art because I'm apparently forcing you to eat pineapple?

I'm actually rather baffled by why you even argue this after I posted the fact that there IS an entire city state of black individuals in the setting which are not, other than a single image out of hundreds, represented at all in any of the books.

Thomas Bowman said:

Whether his character is a man or a woman, it slays the monsters just the same. The D&D rules make no distinction between the sexes on their combat statistics, so a female fighter of the same level and combat abilities can slay a dragon just as easily as a male character could of the same race. If a character dons an item that changes his gender, it has absolutely no effect in combat situations according the D&D rules. Now in reality men on average are stronger than women, but the D&D rules don't reflect this fact, in the interest of fairness. Now if I want to imagine that a male player is playing a female fighter instead of a fighter of his own gender, the combat statistics don't reflect this fact, all he has is a sheet of paper.

However if you have an image like this one to represent a character

This could be a great help in getting it across that your character is a woman, even though the player playing her looks nothing like this! I must admit, I have a fondness for this character, I even created a character sheet for her.
I also liked these characters

of course being a male, I love pictures of pretty women, I could probably play them as a DM, while describing their actions in the third person as NPCs. As player characters representing them as myself would be much harder!

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Hey, here's another example of someone arguing that since the rules don't make any distinction, then we shouldn't make any distinction in how we play the character. I was told earlier upthread that no one ever makes this argument.