Build me a fighter worthy of glorious death!

dungeon blaster · May 11, 2005

I need an NPC for my adventure...and I want her to be wicked deadly.

The basics: 9th - 11th level spiked chain wielding shadowdancing butt kicker. Follower of Graz'zt. Likes fighting in darkness, shadows. Standard magic items for an NPC of that level. I want her optimized, but nothing that abuses rule loopholes.

Caeleddin · May 11, 2005

Rogue/Shadowdancer is pretty standard and can be deadly with her sneak attack. Ranger/Shadowdancer is another strong one, especially with the Ranger's full BAB and TWF. Problem is that you want Spiked Chain. I suppose there is no reason not to allow Spiked Chain to be TWF capable as well, but that would be your purview as DM. I allow it but not the 10ft reach at the same time. It takes a move equivalent to change between TWF Chain and 10ft reach Chain and vice versa. You also can NEVER get TWD with a Spiked Chain.

Inconsequenti-AL · May 11, 2005

I'm sure I saw a class feature that allows spiked chain to be used as a double weapon. IIRC, it may have been in the Exotic Weapon Master from Complete Warrior.

Used a similar opponent a couple of years ago. Was a really horrible fight. The Shadowdancers sorceror ally had convinced a large number of innocent villagers to help. They would chase after the PCs in a huge pack, basically acting as a large hide in plain sight/sneak attack obstacle. The heroic PCs did not, of course, want to start blasting or cutting down innocents. Was fun.

Caeleddin · May 11, 2005

In a situation like that, outnumbered 50 to 1, if the PCs decided to fight, I'd have them grappled to Hell and hung from the nearest tree without a single dice roll. A little House Rule of mine states that if the situation is too stupid to be believed (eg., a level 20 Fighter cutting down 2billion peasants with Great Cleave in one round), the LOGICAL outcome will be enacted instead. I give very specific examples of this, including Monks getting grappled to Hell by 5-6 guardsmen REGARDLESS of the level of the Monk. I don't care how good you are, but when you are buried by bodies, you are BURIED.

shilsen · May 11, 2005

Caeleddin said:
In a situation like that, outnumbered 50 to 1, if the PCs decided to fight, I'd have them grappled to Hell and hung from the nearest tree without a single dice roll. A little House Rule of mine states that if the situation is too stupid to be believed (eg., a level 20 Fighter cutting down 2billion peasants with Great Cleave in one round), the LOGICAL outcome will be enacted instead. I give very specific examples of this, including Monks getting grappled to Hell by 5-6 guardsmen REGARDLESS of the level of the Monk. I don't care how good you are, but when you are buried by bodies, you are BURIED.

"Too stupid to be believed"? The "LOGICAL outcome"? All of those are dependent upon the specific standards you are applying. Have you read much mythology? When you get buried by bodies in the appropriate epic or myth, what you do is kill a few thousand people with the jawbone of an ass. Or how about the superhero genre? A high-level character in D&D is essentially a superhero in comparison with the run of the mill people who inhabit the world. Applying real-world standards to D&D is rarely very useful.

Caeleddin · May 11, 2005

Shilsen - Sorry. I don't subscribe to the longest selling fantasy book in human history.

Very few truly great myths describe their heroes as killers of thousands at a time. None that I can think of, in fact. Arthur, Beowulf, Siegfried, Gilgamesh, Hercules. Their fame came from deeds or vanquishing single monsters.

Inconsequenti-AL · May 11, 2005

Caeleddin said:
In a situation like that, outnumbered 50 to 1, if the PCs decided to fight, I'd have them grappled to Hell and hung from the nearest tree without a single dice roll. A little House Rule of mine states that if the situation is too stupid to be believed (eg., a level 20 Fighter cutting down 2billion peasants with Great Cleave in one round), the LOGICAL outcome will be enacted instead. I give very specific examples of this, including Monks getting grappled to Hell by 5-6 guardsmen REGARDLESS of the level of the Monk. I don't care how good you are, but when you are buried by bodies, you are BURIED.

I'd agree with you... in certain game systems.

My personal take on DnD:

I tend to think that the characters and game change as they go up levels. Low levels they're normal people, then dangerous vetrans. Towards middle levels they're becoming movie action hero tough or the kind of people who get 2 page 'how the heck did that happen' stories in tabloids. At higher levels, I view them pretty much as superheroes!

I wouldn't have a problem with Superman mowing through 2000 peasants without breaking into a sweat. Have no problems with a high level DnD fighter doing so...

In the above story: The PCs were about 10th level... If the wanted to kill them then the peasants would have lasted about a round - fireball or two and that's the end of that.

As it was, it really did give them hell. Between assist other and grappling it gave the non fighters some real difficulties. But mostly the moral issue of not wanting to kill any innocents. I think it was the whirlwind attack + subdual damage combination from the fighter and a well placed Solid Fog that really saved the day...

Figure at the end of the day it's all just a matter of personal taste.

Edit: Basically what Shilsen said. But with more words.

Mustrum_Ridcully · May 11, 2005

Caeleddin said:
Shilsen - Sorry. I don't subscribe to the longest selling fantasy book in human history.

Very few truly great myths describe their heroes as killers of thousands at a time. None that I can think of, in fact. Arthur, Beowulf, Siegfried, Gilgamesh, Hercules. Their fame came from deeds or vanquishing single monsters.

So, most Fighters will eventually succeed in single-handedly killing a Dragon?

jerichothebard · May 11, 2005

Caeleddin said:
...including Monks getting grappled to Hell by 5-6 guardsmen REGARDLESS of the level of the Monk. I don't care how good you are, but when you are buried by bodies, you are BURIED.

You've clearly never seen video of Morihei Ueshiba in action. You know, the founder of Aikido? Good luck mobbing him with 5 town guards.

Mavnn · May 11, 2005

jerichothebard said:
You've clearly never seen video of Morihei Ueshiba in action. You know, the founder of Aikido? Good luck mobbing him with 5 town guards.

This is my take... I've seen even people with 1-2 years training win in grapples with 3-4 opponents in the real world. Extend that to someone who has dedicated a lifetime to training such that they can: teleport, heal themselves from blows that would slay a normal person several times over, run at ludicrous speeds, talk any language...

I'd be pretty dissappointed if the monk couldn't take 5 town guards in a grappling match. It would be "too stupid to be believed" within the reality of the game.

Especially when the wizard promptly incinerated all five with a casual wave of his finger.

Build me a fighter worthy of glorious death!

dungeon blaster

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Caeleddin

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Inconsequenti-AL

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Caeleddin

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shilsen

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jerichothebard

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