Requesting Paladin build advice

Greetings all,

I'm starting in an existing campaign this weekend. I met with the DM a few weeks ago and
built a character, but I'd like to hear whatever advice, comments and/or constructive
criticism people here may have. This is only my second time playing D&D above OD&D
and AD&D years ago, and the first time only lasted a few sessions for me with a Human
Druid 1 (I ended up leaving for personal reasons).

The Paladin is to be ECL 12. (I'm concerned about starting out with a high-level character,
since I haven't grown into him, it's kinda like being given someone else's superhero to play.)

Anyway, here are my thoughts on race and class:

Human Paladin 12
Human Paladin 10 / Knight of the Chalice 2
Aasimar Paladin 11
Aasimar Paladin 10 / Knight of the Chalice 1

Also, any of the above could maybe lead to either Justicar of Tyr or Divine Disciple later.
Or I could just be happy with a pure Paladin.

Attributes (rolled): Str 14 (13 + 1 @ lvl12), Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16 (15 + 1 @ lvl4),
Cha 16 (15 + 1 @ lvl8)

Obviously being an Aasimar would increase Wis and Cha to 18, definitely a big plus for this
guy, though at the cost of LA+1, since he'll also be the face of the party. (Off the top of
my head, IIRC, the rest of the party is a Gold Dwarf Cleric, Halfing? Psion, and Fire Genasi
Shadow Mage?)

HP 12d10+30 (106)
AC 22 (+8 armor, +2 shield, +1 dex, +1 ring)
AL LG

The campaign is currently (and likely to remain) heavily demon-based (demonic orcs right
now), hence the KoC choice.

The build I currently have (in HeroForge) is Human Pal10/KoC2 as follows:

Skills: Diplomacy +18 (13 ranks), Handle Animal +8 (5), Knowledge (religion) +13 (12),
Knowledge (the planes) +8 (7), Ride +8 (5), Sense Motive +16 (13).

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, maybe Weapon Focus (longsword) or
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (khopesh), maybe Glorious Weapons (from Complete Divine).
(Also, one or two less feats if I'm an Aasimar, can someone clarify that?)

He has a Hippogriff mount.

His deity will be either Horus-Re if I decide to make him from either Unther or Mulhorand
(campaign currently taking place in Unther) or Tyr, in which case he's probably from The
Dalelands (Chondathan).

Weapon of choice is either longsword, scimitar or khopesh. If I take khopesh (Horus-Re's
favored weapon), I need EWP (Khopesh), though according to the DM, the most
common swords in the area are scimitars. WF(longsword) would be for in case he ever comes
acros a Holy Avenger (fat chance, probably), though I imagine the DM could simply make
a HA scimitar or khopesh given the setting.

Equipment: +3 breast plate, +1 light steel shield of light fortification, +1 holy scimitar
(or other appropriate sword), +1 ring of protection, 5525 GP remaining.

So, any input?

Thanks,

Justin

If it is allowed, Half-Celestials make UBER Paladins and Monks. +4 to all stats except dex and Int where they get +2. Plus Fly, SR, natural armour and a bunch of spell-like abilities. You give up 4 levels for it though.

As I see it, a Paladin is a secondary caster. Spells should be his last option. So, accordingly, I would use the following stats:

Str 15 (+1 stat) 16
Con 13 (+1 stat) 14
Dex 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 15 (+1 stat) 16

This will give you a more skill points to play with (a thing a Paladin sorely lack). Play an Aasimar and get the +2 to Wis and Cha. That will allow you to cast all spells eventually.

For a heavy demon world, get Extra Smite. PA and Cleave is always good. WF is better than EWP. Paladins are warriors. They can be fanatics, but they are not always so. Weapon choice is not a point of pride to them. Their honour is.

As an Aasimar, you will not get the human extra feat at level 1, and you will not get the 12th level bonus feat (you are only level 11 due to LA).

Caeleddin said:

If it is allowed, Half-Celestials make UBER Paladins and Monks. +4 to all stats except dex and Int where they get +2. Plus Fly, SR, natural armour and a bunch of spell-like abilities. You give up 4 levels for it though.

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I don't know if he would allow a half-celestial, but LA+4 is a pretty big hit. My first choice
was to be a Human, but Aasimar was tempting thought the LA+1 was hard to decide on.
I'll likely stick with Human or Aasimar.

As I see it, a Paladin is a secondary caster. Spells should be his last option. So, accordingly, I would use the following stats:

Str 15 (+1 stat) 16
Con 13 (+1 stat) 14
Dex 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 15 (+1 stat) 16

This will give you a more skill points to play with (a thing a Paladin sorely lack). Play an Aasimar and get the +2 to Wis and Cha. That will allow you to cast all spells eventually.

Interesting. I'll play with these numbers (ahh, HeroForge).

For a heavy demon world, get Extra Smite. PA and Cleave is always good. WF is better than EWP.

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Good tips.

Paladins are warriors. They can be fanatics, but they are not always so. Weapon choice is not a point of pride to them. Their honour is.

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True. Btw, I'm not trying to be a munchkin (not that you were implying that). I just like to
think ahead. Plus I've been spoiled by reading about The Ahma (although Nwm is my
favorite).

As an Aasimar, you will not get the human extra feat at level 1, and you will not get
the 12th level bonus feat (you are only level 11 due to LA).

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As I suspected. So only four feats: PA, Cleave, WF, Extra Smite. No mounted combat,
then, but I doubt that would be very frequent.

Thanks!

Justin

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Divine Might is a very good feat if you can get your Cha up. Your is not very high. Can you get a Cloak of Charisma +2? +4? The bonus damage works very well if you make a mounted charge.

Have you considered Spirited Charge?

If you expect to be hip deep in demons and devils, Extra Smiting is a solid feat, too.

You do not need Cleave. Your damage output is not good enough for a 12th level melee combatant to get regular Cleaves against all but the weakest mooks (unless you are using a combo with other abilities, which suggests Spirited Charge, Divine Might, and/or Extra Smiting should be taken first.

Ridley's Cohort said:

Divine Might is a very good feat if you can get your Cha up. Your is not very high. Can you get a Cloak of Charisma +2? +4? The bonus damage works very well if you make a mounted charge.

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If I'm an Aasimar, Cha is 18. A +2 Cloak of Charisma is 4,000 GP, which I can just afford.
Hmmm...

Have you considered Spirited Charge?

If you expect to be hip deep in demons and devils, Extra Smiting is a solid feat, too.

You do not need Cleave. Your damage output is not good enough for a 12th level melee combatant to get regular Cleaves against all but the weakest mooks (unless you are using a combo with other abilities, which suggests Spirited Charge, Divine Might, and/or Extra Smiting should be taken first.

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As an Aasimar with CL 11, the feats I'd probably take are WF, PA, Extra Smiting, and
Divine Might (good call!). I'll get another feat at CL12, so I could start the tree to get to
Spirited Charge by CL18 if I forego all other feats until epic levels (which we're planning on,
should we survive).

I'm planning on this character (no name yet) being a devoted demonslayer (well, devils
and other evil outsiders, too; all part of his background I'm working on). I even considered
a level of Ranger (which could also nicely work into the background) as well after reading the
description of Knights of the Chalice (which suggests Rgr/Pal or Rgr/Cle), but the Favored
Enemy bonuses seem greatly outweighed by the additional Pal or KoC level given up.

Justin

Don't bother with Ranger. Its not worth the 1 level. Once you get to very high levels of Ranger, they are as good as Fighters because their favoured enemies will compensate for the Fighter's weapon Spec. But at 1 level, it is not worth it.

Caeleddin said:

If it is allowed, Half-Celestials make UBER Paladins and Monks. +4 to all stats except dex and Int where they get +2. Plus Fly, SR, natural armour and a bunch of spell-like abilities. You give up 4 levels for it though.

As I see it, a Paladin is a secondary caster. Spells should be his last option.

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Good advice

So, accordingly, I would use the following stats:

Str 15 (+1 stat) 16
Con 13 (+1 stat) 14
Dex 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 15 (+1 stat) 16

This will give you a more skill points to play with (a thing a Paladin sorely lack). Play an Aasimar and get the +2 to Wis and Cha. That will allow you to cast all spells eventually.

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Not so good advice. Paladins may lack skill points, but front line combatants find a lack of hit points to be a much more serious deficiency. I'd arrange the stats more like this:

Str 15 (+1 lvl 4)
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 15 (+1 lvl 8 and the rest of your increases (12, 16, 20))

The choice between dex, int, and wis for the 13 is pretty questionable. Dex qualifies you for dodge, mobility, and elusive target--useful feats, but not as useful as other ones for a paladin. Int qualifies you for combat expertise, improved trip, etc--also quite useful feats, but not a paladin's bread and butter. Wisdom enables you to cast third level spells without a stat booster. It's superfluous if you wear a periapt of wisdom, but useful if you never get one.

If you're a human character, that build gives you 4 skill points per level which is plenty. With 4 skill points per level, you can max diplomacy, sense motive, and ride and in two levels, you'll still have enough skills to have the five rank synergies from knowledge religion, knowledge: nobility and royalty, and handle animal. (Actually, it makes sense to have diplomacy two ranks from max and take 5 ranks of knowledge: Nobility and Royalty if you're starting at 12th level--those two ranks give you the same +2 bonus to diplomacy that two diplomacy ranks would give you AND they give you +2 to knowledge: nobility and Royalty too).

By 12th level the hit for playing an Aasimar or half-celestial may actually be worth it, but I'd still stick with human instead unless you've a good story reason to be something else. +2 wis and cha translates into +1 to hit with your smites, an extra 2nd level spell, +1 hp/level lay on hands, and +1 to all saves via divine grace. Being a level 12 paladin instead of a level 11 Aasimar gives you +1 to hit with all attacks, +1 damage on all your smites, an average of 8.5 hit points, a 3rd level spell (if you've a 13 Wis), an extra level of mount advancement, and +1 on all your saves (via base save bonuses). Being a human instead of an Aasimar also gives you 15 bonus skill points and one bonus feat. To me, the human package sounds better than the Aasimar one. (Some of the benefits are only present at level 11/12--for instance a 12th level Aasimar paladin has better saves and more spells than an 13th level human paladin, but that somewhat balances out because there are noticable benefits to being human at other levels that aren't noticable at level 11/12. For instance, an 11th or 16th level human paladin has one more attack than a 10th or 15th level Aasimar paladin).

Half Celestial is a more interesting choice because the differences are much greater--coming in the form of DR, SR, resistances, and spell-like abilities. By ECL 12, the +4 con will translate into 16 hit points. The extra 4 HD tranlate into 34 hit points so you're noticably down there, but not as much as you are at earlier levels. Similarly, the +2 strength translates into +2 attack and damage, so you're even with a human paladin who always power attacks for two points with a one-handed weapon... except that the human has an extra attack. The +4 charisma translates into 16 more points of lay on hands which is slightly morethan the (minimum--assuming no charisma cloak) 12 points of lay on hands that four levels give the human version of the paladin. With smiting, the +2 to hit from charisma doesn't even out the +4 to damage and the extra smite that a human paladin would get. But, at least the half-celestial paladin is in the ballpark of the human paladin by ECL 12. You just need to decide whether the spell like and other abilities are good enough to be worth the hit in melee effectiveness.

For a heavy demon world, get Extra Smite. PA and Cleave is always good. WF is better than EWP. Paladins are warriors. They can be fanatics, but they are not always so. Weapon choice is not a point of pride to them. Their honour is.

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Decent advice. I'd say Cleave is optional and Extra Smiting is good in nearly any world.

Human Pal 12: Power Attack, Extra Smiting, Extra Smiting, Divine Might, Improved Critical: Scimitar, Extra Smiting.
That should put you at 9 smites per day which will put the hurt on a lot of enemies.

A mounted Human Pal 12: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Divine Might, Spirited Charge, Extra Smiting

Be sure to give your mount Improved Flight (CV) so that it can keep flying and let you full attack in the next round if something survives your charge.

As for the question of weapons, if your DM says scimitars are the most common weapon in the campaign, I'd go for a scimitar. Aside from the character concept and campaign considerations, however, it's also a solid choice from a damage point of view--at least if you have Imp Crit or a keen weapon.

Assuming all crit threats are hits (not necessarily true, but pretty close IMO) and that all threats confirm (again, not necessarily true unless you're using bless weapon against evil foes, but you probably will be doing that a lot and most do):
1. The average difference in damage between a longsword and a scimitar is one point.
2. The difference in critical rate between a longsword and scimitar is 5% (10% if doubled).
3. Therefore the average damage including crits from a scimitar will exceed that from a longsword any time that 5% or 10% of the crit-multiplyable damage exceeds one point.
4. That happens at 20 points of average damage/hit without Imp Crit and 10 points of damage per hit with improved critical.
5. This paladin, when using divine might and smite evil, does 1d6+19 points of crit multiplyable damage on a hit with a +1 one handed weapon (and no cha cloak)--averaging out to 23.5 points. With only Divine Might, he does 1d6+7 with a +1 one-handed weapon--averaging 10.5 points. Wielding the weapon two-handed and power attacking, those numbers go up dramatically.

Since this assumes ideal conditions for the scimitar--all threats are hits and all threats confirm, scale back the numbers a bit. The conclusion is still valid: a scimitar will deal decidedly more damage than a longsword when using divine might and smiting critable foes (in fact, it pulls about as far ahead of the longsword as the longsword starts out ahead of it). Without Improved Crit or with only Divine Might, the numbers are pretty inconclusive and the scimitar and longsword are even. Without using power attack, divine might or smite evil, and against uncrittable foes, the longsword is superior to the scimitar.

So, if you take the scimitar, either get it keen or take improved crit. Otherwise, take the longsword.

A few other things:

1. Knight of the Chalice, naturally, rocks against demons. If they're the campaigns' main foes, take it. Make sure to look at the Complete Divine version too if you're using 3.5 (or even if you aren't).

2. Since Knight of the Chalice demonslaying bonusses are extra dice, they aren't multiplied on a crit. And, of course, Knights of the chalice don't improve your smite evil damage meaning you'll have less crit-multiplyable damage than the above analysis assumed. So, the longsword is a better weapon for a knight of the chalice.

3. Since smite damage doesn't multiply and Demonslaying is always on, Extra Smitiing isn't as good for a paladin/knight of the chalice. If you go that route, I'd recommendthe following:
At least one level of ranger with Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider. Take Improved Favored Enemy and Favored Enemy Power Attack. (At that point, crit-multipliable damage is back up and scimitar is once again the choice of damage).

I prefer more skills points because I like to do cross-class skills. Spot, Listen, Heal, Tumble, Search, Hide and Move Silently are standard for my characters, skill points permitting. I also add Bluff and Sleight of Hand for characters that like children to entertain them when time permits. Con is good, but 1 hp/level is not going to make that much of a difference.

The Aasimar is a good choice, yes you give up one level, but the bonus to Wis and Chr are very usefull, as well as the restistances. Human with extra feats and skills and the bonus level doesn't suck either though.

I like the High Int build a bit better, becasuse I'm more of a skillpoint guy. Kn:Religion is a must, Diplomacy is nice (especialy if your Chr is 18), and paladins have a few other nice skills (Ride among others). The Con of 14 should be good, you're only talking 11 HP, and you still get a D10. If you're worried, get a con boosting magic item.

Divine feats and/or mounted combat feats are a good way to go. So is the Power Attack or Combat Expertise tree.

Either way, make a cool back story and give him personality beyond simply "I am noble paladin!" and you'll have a blast no matter what you do.