Touch attacks = attack/standard action?

I have a house rule:

A spellcaster cannot make a move action in-between casting a touch spell and making the touch attack in the same round. They can, however, take a 5' step between casting and touching.
- You can cast-touch as one action, before or after moving, just as with any other casting.

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I know most folks aren't bothered by this exception to the core/standard rule of one standard action + one move action = one round. But it bothers me on a visceral level. I've always said it breaks the core/standard rule by allowing a standard action + a move action + a standard action in one round.

But something just struck me while rethinking this house rule (as I rethink all my house rules occassionally). Is a touch attack actually an attack [standard] action? According to the RAW, touch attacks can be included with:

Casting a spell [a standard action itself]
Initiating a grapple [an attack action itself]
Initiating a trip [an attack action itself]
And many supernatural attacks like a green hag's weakness attack, etc. [a standard action itself]
You can even touch 6 allies with casting a spell

Are there other examples of a touch attack being part of a standard action?

So this got me thinking. Is a touch attack a standard action by itself? Or is it something less?

Although you can include a touch attack as part of casting a spell, the round you cast the spell, it is considered an attack (standard action) unto itself when used in rounds after the initial casting. So this is a counter-point to the idea.

And can something like the green hag's weakness attack be "activated" (Su = standard action), then run up to the victim, then deliver the touch attack?

What do you think?

Quasqueton

Quasqueton said:

So this got me thinking. Is a touch attack a standard action by itself? Or is it something less?

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Not just a touch attack, but an attack is not a standard action itself, either. Do you really think you are making 4 standard actions/turn when your 16th-level fighter is making a full-attack?

A touch attack is part of all the actions you listed not seperate. Part of the trip attack action is a touch attack followed by opposed str checks.

a touch attack is included in the spell because it represents enough time to merely brush against your opponet and is (I think) counted as a final somatic gesture of the spell.

Not just a touch attack, but an attack is not a standard action itself, either.

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The attack action (a single attack) is a standard action.

Do you really think you are making 4 standard actions/turn when your 16th-level fighter is making a full-attack?

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No, he is making a full attack, which is a full-round action.


So, is a touch attack sort of a special free action when combined with another action or a move? Sort of like drawing a weapon with a move.

Also: Touching someone in combat prompts an attack of opportunity. Touching someone with an active touch spell does not. Is there some visible effect on your hand when you have a touch effect ready, that the opponent can see and know he must avoid (misses the chance for an AoO)? Can you bluff an opponent into not taking an AoO by making him think you have an armed unarmed attack coming at him?

Quasqueton

Quasqueton said:

The attack action (a single attack) is a standard action.

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"an attack" and "Attack (action)" are different concepts.

"Attack (action)" is a kind of standard action which enables you to make an attack.

"an attack" is, an attack. You make an attack as a part of "(standard) attack action". You make an attack as an Attack of opportunity. You make multiple attacks when makeing a full-attack action.

"an attack" itself is not an action at all. "a touch attack" itself is not an action, too.

Quasqueton said:

So, is a touch attack sort of a special free action when combined with another action or a move? Sort of like drawing a weapon with a move.

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That's pretty much how the rules treat it. You can make a touch attack as a standard (attack) action, or multiple touch attacks as a full-round (full attack) action. Alternatively, you can make a touch attack as a free action when combined with another action (casting a touch spell).

Similarly you can draw a weapon as a move action. Alternatively, you can draw a weapon as a free action when combined with another action (a move).

Also: Touching someone in combat prompts an attack of opportunity.

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That's not necessarily the case. Any effective normal attack (like with a sword) is also an effective touch attack - you beat both your target's touch AC and its full AC.

Accordingly, touching someone in combat doesn't really provoke an AoO unless the weapon / appendage you are doing it with would normally provoke. The reason Trip provokes an AoO is not because you start with a touch attack, but because you are trying to trip someone.

Touching someone with an active touch spell does not. Is there some visible effect on your hand when you have a touch effect ready, that the opponent can see and know he must avoid (misses the chance for an AoO)?

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I've always ruled that there is some visible effect. Most spells, in fact, mention this, though not always in the SRD.

SRD said:

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy,

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Can you bluff an opponent into not taking an AoO by making him think you have an armed unarmed attack coming at him?

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No. The simple fact of the matter is that you don't know kung fu. No matter how good you are at faking the crane stance, when it comes time to deliver the boot to the head, you don't have the right balance, timing, or skill. Accordingly, you still open yourself to an AoO.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

No. The simple fact of the matter is that you don't know kung fu. No matter how good you are at faking the crane stance, when it comes time to deliver the boot to the head, you don't have the right balance, timing, or skill. Accordingly, you still open yourself to an AoO.

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What about a "fake" touch spell, though? For example, if I command my hat of disguise to add a faint blue glow to my left hand, does that mean that others who see it will think that I threaten the squares around me?

I'll have to consider this both from a player's and DM's perspective, since whatever I might want for the game I play in, I would have to rule it that way for the game I DM.

Quasqueton said:

The attack action (a single attack) is a standard action.
No, he is making a full attack, which is a full-round action.

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Well in RAW it ther is an "attack" action, and there is an "attack action." there is a notable difference. the "attack action" is a standard action, but an "attack" action is the action taken anytime you make an attack roll. subtle diffence, but still prevelant.
for spells you can, for example as a "standard action" cast Produce Flame and move upto your target this round. Next round you could take a "Full-Attack action", which consists of 1-3 "attack" actions-which are "touch attacks".

clear as mud?

Quasqueton said:

I have a house rule:


A spellcaster cannot make a move action in-between casting a touch spell and making the touch attack in the same round. They can, however, take a 5' step between casting and touching.
- You can cast-touch as one action, before or after moving, just as with any other casting.

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The only part of that statement that is a house rule is allowing the 5' step. You are already prohibited from taking a move action in between casting and touching, unless you use a separate standard action to deliver the touch spell later. You can make a touch attack as part of the spell that grants it. That doesn't entitle you to move in between. If casting the spell is a standard action, then the touch attack must be taken during that standard action to be part of it.