Orinthonian Sects: Tales of Wyre SH

Tirlanolir

First Post
Two Orinthonian Sects in Sep's SH have been puzzling and intriguing me: (1) Urgic Mystics, and (2) Reconcilatory Sophists.

I'm trying to figure out the belief system and dogma behind both of these groups. I've come to the preliminary conclusion, with Cheiro's assistance, that the Urgic Mystics are arcane wielding mystics. Perhaps they use the arcane to fuel their search for truth. Would Goeticism be forbidden or embraced by such folk? I suppose if it is used in an effort to obtain the truth about the fall, saizhon, or nonbeing or some other such thing, it would be useful, a tool, like Shomei used devils.

Reconcilatory Sophists I view as having a personal interpretation of Orinthon that focuses on justification of their actions as the will of God by twisting dogma into meaning something applicable to the moment. An RS could reconcile his action, even an evil act, as a good act and thus the will of Orinthon, by twisting dogma and using circular logic.

But I wonder what Sep had in mind for these sects? Any thoughts?


Here's a link to the SH: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=58227
 
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Gidien

First Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the Urgic Mystics as being the oddball hermits (Zen inspired, it would seem) that Tramst trained with prior to becoming the Sela. If so, I don't think they have anything to do with arcane magic; they may not even have any clerical powers. Sep once discussed the idea that in the Wyre most of the clergy are just experts, and have no casting ability. Even the head of the church was simply an NPC class with the Contemplative PrC from the 3E cleric splatbook.

While the Mystics, who mainly grappled with the concept or Orinthon's dualistic nature, were an older sect, the Revisionists are new, and probably follow the Sela's teachings of Saizhan and the Path of Lightning.
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
@Gidien: you are right about the experts and contemplatives. But an organization called "urgic mystics" just *has* to have mystic theurges in it. I mean, just from the name!

I don't know what reconciliatory sophist would do (reconciliatory, not revisionist!), but here's my version of a goetic magician:

Goetic Magician

From "The Ethical Use of Arcane Magic: a Believer’s Guide," by Deacon Roland of Samarand.

"Beware the temptations of Goetia, for those who would use diabolism to achieve their foul ends, our Lord has no mercy. Pain and suffering immeasurable shall be their lot, as their souls are condemned to the pit. There they will be immersed in great lakes of boiling lead, until the last days."

Roland’s discourse continues in a similar flowery and rhetorical vein for several pages, admonishing the true believer against using dark magics and citing numerous theologians to back up his point. Further into the chapter, beneath a stylized plate of a wizard fleeing from a horned demon, Roland finally addresses the nature of Goetic magic.

"What is Goetia, you may ask? It is the greatest peril. It is dealing with fiends to achieve your ends, and claiming that your ends are good. Only the purest and most stalwart of souls may endure such vileness without the taint falling upon them. Are you one of these? I doubt it.”

Several magical diagrams follow, accompanied by descriptions of summoning rituals.


Hit Dice: d6.

Requirements
To become a goetic magician, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Knowledge (the planes): 8 ranks
Diplomacy: 4 ranks
Alignment: non-evil, non-chaotic
Feats: Augment Summoning, Great Fortitude, Spell Focus (Conjuration) (note: the requirement of Spell Focus (Conjuration) is waived for wizards who specialize in conjuration.)
Spell casting: must be able to cast dimensional anchor, lesser planar binding, summon monster IV (or higher) and four enchantment (compulsion) spells from the wizard spell list, at least one of which must be of level 4 or higher
Languages: must be able to speak Abyssal and Infernal

Class Skills
The goetic magician’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter Four: Skills in the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level...BAB...Fort.....Ref….Will... Special......................Spellcasting
1.........+0.....+2......+0....+2.... fiendish luck...............+1 level of existing spellcasting class
2.........+1.....+3......+0....+3.... unholy bargain............+1 level of existing spellcasting class
3.........+2.....+3......+1....+3.... goetic mastery I.........+1 spell power
4.........+3.....+4......+1....+4.... the will and the way....+1 level of existing spellcasting class
5.........+3.....+4......+1....+4.... goetic mastery II........+1 spell power
6.........+4.....+5......+2....+5.... goetic mastery III.......+1 level of existing spellcasting class


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the goetic magician prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The goetic magician gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Fiendish Luck (Su): Once per day the goetic magician may reroll one ability or skill check; the better result automatically applies.

Unholy Bargain (Su): The goetic magician may cast any planar binding spell as if it were the corresponding planar ally spell and as if she were of evil alignment.

Goetic Mastery I (Su): When a goetic magician of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of one level higher for purposes of summoning evil creatures. For example, a goetic magician refers to the summon monster V list for evil outsiders when casting summon monster IV. Furthermore, when casting any planar binding or planar ally spelll, she can call an evil creature 2 HD higher than normally allowed.

+1 Spell Power: This ability increases the goetic magician’s effective caster level by +1 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only. She does not gain additional spell slots or spells known.

The Will and the Way (Su): At 4th level the goetic magician gains the Iron Will feat for free, and the xp costs for any conjuration spell she casts are reduced by 50%. When she is otherwise capable of casting 8th level spells, she automatically adds Lesser Gate to her list of spells known. Lesser Gate is an 8th level spell that can only use the “creature calling” function, but which is otherwise identical to Gate. When bargaining with extraplanar creatures the payment for services rendered is only 50% the normal cost.

Goetic Mastery II (Su): As Goetic Mastery I, except the goetic magician refers to the summoning list two levels higher than the one for the summon monster spell she is casting. Furthermore, when casting any planar binding or planar ally spelll, she can call an evil creature 4 HD higher than normally allowed.

Goetic Mastery III (Su): As Goetic Mastery I, except the goetic magician refers to the list three levels higher. Furthermore, when casting any planar binding or planar ally spelll, she can call an evil creature 6 HD higher than normally allowed.

Note on Alignment: To become a goetic magician, the character must be non-evil and non-chaotic. Thereafter the alignment restrictions are eased, but a goetic magician must still adhere to a particular code of conduct: If a goetic magician knowingly uses magic to hurt, kill or oppress a non-combatant sentient being of good alignment, one or more of class abilities will be corrupted. Usually this means that conjured creatures will no longer be completely under the goetic magician’s control. The degree to which conjured creatures will disobey or try to harm the goetic magician will be similar to the way that the goetic magician abused her powers, but to a greater extent. A similar corruption of class abilities will occur if the goetic magician fails to fulfill a bargain, especially a bargain with a fiend. Note that clerics may run afoul of their deity if they become lax in their alignment; deities typically have much stricter standards than do goetic magicians.

------

Comments: the flavor text is lifted from Sepulchrave's Story Hour, of course, with a few details changed.

I tried to make the pre-req's and special abilities so that this class would not synergize well with other "summoning" classes- e.g. Nar Demonbinder or Thaumaturgist.

Fiendish luck is in case you roll a 1 on your charisma check to keep a fiend bound. Planar binding hit dice caps end up being the same as in the old 3.0 rules. Lesser gate is typically achieved about the same time that other spellcasters are able to acquire gate, since spell power slows down their spell advancement.
 


the Jester

Legend
First of all, I think it's awesome that there's now a thread about Wyrish stuff started without Sep... :)

Secondly, nice prc Cheiromancer, but it seems ripe for cherry picking to me. I'd move one of the +1 spell power levels to 1st, so it isn't a 'given' that every caster will want to take this class. Also, why do you give 'em d6 hps? d4 seems more appropriate to me.

Hmm, also, why no chaotics?

I just noticed their BAB progression is 3/4, too- that also seems overpowered to me. YMMV... :heh:
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
the Jester said:
First of all, I think it's awesome that there's now a thread about Wyrish stuff started without Sep... :)

Secondly, nice prc Cheiromancer, but it seems ripe for cherry picking to me. I'd move one of the +1 spell power levels to 1st, so it isn't a 'given' that every caster will want to take this class. Also, why do you give 'em d6 hps? d4 seems more appropriate to me.

Hmm, also, why no chaotics?

I just noticed their BAB progression is 3/4, too- that also seems overpowered to me. YMMV... :heh:

And good fortitude saves- don't forget them! :)

Hardly any caster would qualify. A diplomatic, summoning oriented wizard who is concerned about his fort saves might be drawn to cherry pick the class. He'd have the ranks in diplomacy (cross class), knowledge: planes, and the feats great fortitude (!), spell focus: conjuration and augment summoning. Then it'd be a no-brainer to take a few levels in the class.

Anyone else would have to decide if the hodge podge of benefits was worth the cost. The ability to reroll a skill check 1/day is hardly earthshaking, nor is getting access to planar ally. The net benefits of two levels of GM over two levels of wizard are those features and +2 to fort saves and +2 to hit points. The medium BAB is distinguishable from a poor BAB only at 3rd level, when the GM doesn't get any more spells per day. Few wizards would consider that a fair exchange (even if your summon monster spells all get upgraded that level).

IIRC, at the time I was interested in wizard prestige classes that didn't have full spellcasting progression. Although the improvement to summon monster and planar binding spells are good, I didn't think they made up for 2 levels of spellcasting being lost, especially with the prerequisites. Both levels of spell power is equivalent to 1/2 the practiced spellcaster feat. The trifling benefits to BAB, saves and hit points are there to make it plausible that the prestige class is worth the costs. And they make the GM more "stalwart" and "able to endure vileness."

Re: non-chaotics
In real life, Goetia is based on the notion that fallen angels are under punishment by god, and part of this punishment is the humiliation of being subordinate to human beings. So by invoking the divine order, a human being can boss them around. But its only by submission to the divine order that you can invoke it; otherwise the fallen angel can turn the tables on you. Remember the story of King Solomon's Seal? Once upon a time he bound a lot of demons/devils/ifreet in a bottle, and so now by invoking King Solomon's authority (who bound them in the first place) an enterprising magician can command those beings. Goetia is like that.

It's a nod to the presuppositions of Goetia ("Only the purest and most stalwart of souls may endure such vileness without the taint falling upon them. Are you one of these? I doubt it.") that I put the non-evil and non-chaotic restrictions. And even these are relaxed (but see the code of conduct under "Note on Alignment").
 

the Jester

Legend
I actually see it being very easy to qualify for for a wizard of 7th level or higher.

Anyway, though I would turn it down in a few ways, YMMV. :)
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
the Jester said:
I actually see it being very easy to qualify for for a wizard of 7th level or higher.

Anyway, though I would turn it down in a few ways, YMMV. :)

Hmmm. Does this hypothetical 7th level wizard take another prestige class first? Would he take more than two levels of GM?

I guess I am asking for a few more hints as to how someone could break the class.
 

the Jester

Legend
Well, take a wiz 7/GM 6 vs. a wiz 13.

Spells: wiz 13 has 7th level, GM/wiz combo has 6th level spells. Caster level is the same, however. Even the wiz 13's advantage here is offset by the fact that the GM's summon monster VI summons something from the SM IX (!) list. That's a must-have for all intents and purposes; it's the equivalent of a 9th level spell (vs. the 7th level the straight wizard gets). Granted, it's very limited- but the summoning spells are very good due to their versatility; often you can get a creature who can cast the stuff you really need but can't do yourself.

HP: On average, the GM is up 6 hp.

BAB: wiz 13 gets +6, wiz/gm gets +7.

Saves: wiz 13 has Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8 for base. GM has Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10.

Special abilities: the gm loses 1 bonus feat (10th level) and gains the lucky reroll 1/day.

It just seems a lil overpowered to me- and especially ripe for cherry picking. Heck, instead of taking all 6 levels of GM, take two- you get the fiendish luck ability, you gain 2 hp (on average), your Will save will be up by +2, and Fort by +3 and you lose no spellcasting ability.
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
Ok. I've fiddled with it a bit, and I think this works better (see next post).

Three features that have been retained from the first version: First, goetia only applies to evil monsters. A goetic master can summon a bebilith with a Monster Summoning VII, but not a Couatl. Second, a monster conjured by a goetic magician cannot be used to harm innocents without risking corruption of class abilities. I have moved these details from the "Note on Alignment" to a new first level class ability called "goetia". Third, fiendish luck is not the luck domain granted power: it applies only to skill and ability checks.

I've reduced the BAB, HD and Fort saves, and substituted Skill Focus for Great Fortitude. I've also dropped the alignment requirements, since the code of conduct is quite explicit. The skill prerequisites were juggled; it is easier for a wizard to qualify than a sorcerer, but not too much easier. Goetia is toned down a trifle. No bonus iron will feat anymore.

Two of the class abilities overlap with the Thaumaturgist, but Thaumaturgist might still be a good class to take after (or simultaneously with) Goetic Magician.
 
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