Dragon fighting tactics?

I'm going to say this flat out - if you play the black dragon to the extent of its abilities, the party is going to die, and die hard.

It breaks down real easy:

- Dragons all have absolutly amazing mobility. They are strong, they are fast, and they are versatile. A battle in an enclosed space is horribly bad for the dragon, and thus should be avoided at all costs. If the dragon gets somehow ambushed in a place where its ability to move is compromised, its first and only goal should be to get the hell out asap. Run away, then come back and ambush the people who ambushed you. You don't live to be centuries old by being arrogant.

- Black dragons live in swamps, and can breathe water. Chances are the PCs cannot.

- The single best course of action in a fight on its home turf would be for the dragon to snatch one PC and fly away quickly. Then take the snatched PC underwater where they'll likely drown in addition to being shredded by the dragon's teeth, claws, etc. Once that PC is dead, go back for the next one and keep doing the same thing until the threat is over.

- Target healers and spellcasters first. They're the most likely to be able to restrict your mobility, and the most easy to dispatch once you've got hold of them. Also be sure to drop people wearing heavy armor into deep water. It's a simple and quick way to take them out of the immediate fight, and you can go back later to deal with them, assuming they survive.

Always up for a good dragon post

Ok, being a big dragon guy, my eye was drawn to this post. Obviously both parties will fight for the optimal enviroment. The dragon will want a swampy area, or someplace with water so it can retreat if it needs too, if not it's own den. The players...well, someplace to keep it slowed. Anything, everything, slow it down, keep it down with spells, poison (have to be pretty tough stuff), and terrain.
The dragon will likely (or should) have some back up, a mate at that age or just some creatures it bullies around like kobolds, lizard folk, use it's ability to charm reptiles, let alone the other creatures they'll encounter that live in it's territory (probably in fear).
If you have the Draconomicon, it will help greatly for feats and spells for both parties involved.

Here's how I would have the dragon set up.

Feats(7):Improved Initiative, Dire Charge (need imp.initiative; full attack after charge), Recover Breath (use breath weapon a round earlier), Quicked Breath (use breath weapon as a free action), Hover, Flyby Attack, Adriot Flyby Attack (as and need flyby attack, but dragon doesn't provoke)

as for spells, anything to boost the dragon and weaken the party. If it gets into an area where it can fly, it can use it's breath weapon as a free action, then fly around and claw at them.

Ask for the party, as I said earlier, get it away from where it feels safe. Odds are the dragon is smarter (should be) than that and will stay in it's swamp. Once again, if I were in the party (instead of the DM), I'd set up an ambush. It depends on why they're after it though. Draw it out and ambush it or draw it out and have a welcome party waiting at home when it comes back. If possible get a dragon hunter hired. Also remember that if the dragon has minions like kobolds and stuff, they're somewhat likely to betray it since they don't like being bullied (who does?), but also remember that they're somewhat afriad and will probably scatter at first site unless they really have faith in that paladin.
Summon outside help! Make the summon monsterspells useful! If it's near a town, pile up the mercenaries and blood houds. It's likely to pay off with a dragon and it's hoard.

If you play this dragon half as cunning as it should be it will cream your players.

Well your players are going to be in for a really rough time...and by rough time I mean stick their heads between their legs and kiss their asses’ goodbye...
But seriously the key to fighting dragons if getting them confined and then flanking them, out on the wing a dragon is one serious beast, the paladin will want to flank and then hit the dragon with a smite only on his (or her) primary attack, the bard will definitely want to open up with a bard song of inspire courage, the cleric should furnish everyone with protection from acid and cast buffing spells like bulls strength, bless, prayer (anything that will give bonuses to hit), once the big buffs are out there the cleric will need to think about healing wounded comrade as the battle progresses, to avoid attacks of opportunity use your fellow party members as cover, if the rogue has a REALLY good armour class and has gone for mobility it can be a good move to go for a total defence and try and provoke the dragon into an attack of opportunity so the rest of the melee can close and attack without danger (dragons have lousy DEX so rarely have combat reflexes), touch spells are definitely the way to bugger up a dragon, enervation (although your mage will have to cast it from a scroll or other device) is a great spell, no saving throw only SR and it makes it easier to get past a dragons massive saves with other spells like bestow curse or ray of enfeeblement, if a party member discovers that they have very little chance to hit they should still engage the dragon and assist a fellow party member to hit (its as good as a flank and multiple people can all assist). Not all DM allow this one, but the web spell cast between the dragon’s wings when they are in the "up" position should effectively ground the dragon and cause it falling damage.

P.S. don't forget to prepare a few copies of dispel magic to get rid of those pesky shield and mage armour spells the dragon is bound to cast.

P.P.S I haven't given the dragon any advice because a) they are so arrogant than they would scorn my advice and b) they all ready have a massive advantage over the poor party

Dex drain. Find some way of draining 10 points of dex, and there's a dead dragon for you. Best way of doing this is probably controlling some incorporeal undead. There are also some poisons that does the job, but the save DCs are a little low.

Enervation is pretty awesome too. Makes the dragon vulnerable to other tactics.

myradale said:

Alright, I don't know if this should go here or elsewhere...

I'm going to be running my very first dragon encounter since I started playing almost 20 years ago. They are a bit different than other encounters and I could use some help.

The dragon in question is a CR 14 Adult Black, and the players are a rogue 12, paladin 11, bard3/fighter8 and a cleric2/wiz3/psion3/cerebromancer 6

What good tactics could they use to defeat it, and what tactics should the dragon employ?

I'm trying to get the group to put more effort into tactics and planning, and hence I'm trying to reward them accordingly for good tactical decisions.
Any suggestions?

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being that one of you players is psilike 9, this should be easy. provided that he is close enough, crystal shard, followed by some crystal shard, and then a dash of crystal shard.
What better way to fight big creatures than with touch attacks? second: dragons have SR --crystal shard: SR: No
Third good damage.

To answer the second question. the dragon should never get within close range. never be in closed in area's (unless a pit of acid) if large amounts of acid are not avail, then water is the next best substitue. besides, if you've got cleaver pcs then they will take the acid and sell it for a billion billion pp.(see vials of acid in Raw, not much volume)
the dragon should use his most powerful spells first, never closing unless he is cornered. he would prefer to run away and harrass the pcs later.

those are my thoughts.

myradale said:

Alright, I don't know if this should go here or elsewhere...

I'm trying to get the group to put more effort into tactics and planning, and hence I'm trying to reward them accordingly for good tactical decisions.
Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

I'm curious to know what happens. I have *never*, in ANY RPG, seen a party take out a dragon without the DM making a string of horrible tactical decisions.

The biggest mistake I've seen is playing a close-fighting Dragon that has apparantly forgotten that it can fly. A dragon can be devestating in close-range combat, but that should be a last resort.

Remember, also, that a dragon has a dragon hoard. Probably stocked with magic items that previous snacks.. errmm... adventurers were using. If the dragon is expecting trouble, I would think it would dip into that stash some, although likely not for routine hunting, terrorizing the locals, whatever.

One thing I always keep in mind when running a dragon encounter- if I'm forcing the encounter on the group, it likely won't be lethal, barring bad luck. If the party goes dragon hunting, figuring that either I won't TPK them for their hubris or that they've got some trick or tactic that makes them the exception to the "Adventurers as Food" rule that dragons follow, then there's no mercy. It's happened twice- with the same dragon, no less. A group of 17th level adventurers figured that they could take out a dragon. The first time, they walked into a trap (closed the walls around them, launched breath weapons). The second time, the only thing that saved them was a *very* clever bard. Even at that, they had to Ressurrect a high-level Fighter/Mage who decided to Fly off ahead of the group and challenge the dragon on its own terms.

MichaelH said:

Adult black dragons actually have 19 HD, and they get 1 feat at 1 HD and 1 feat for every 3 HD like every other creature. So an adult black has 7 feats.

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Forgot I have the 3.0 SRD on my hard drive and not the RSRD. Moo, moo-moo. In 3.0 an adult black is a Huge 20HD creature that gets 1 + 1 feat/4 levels. Hmmm. In one list it's 20-21HD in another it's 19-21HD.

The adult black, however, is only Large, so it could only use Snatch on Tiny or smaller creatures.

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Well, the 3.0 SRD says you get some special tricks for creatures 3-4+ sizes smaller but it appears you can still use snatch as an improved grab ability on creatures of any size. It also looks like any creature snatched loses their save to the breath weapon. Has this changed in RSRD? (books are at home, yadda-yadda)

kigmatzomat said:

My standard dragon feat suggestions stand: hover, wingover, fly-by and snatch.

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In 3.5e, an Adult Black Dragon is 19 HD and size Large (not Huge!). So he can't meet the pre-req.s for the Snatch feat.

Ok, from what I'm gettinge here is that my lovely black dragon should have absolutely no problems completely wiping up the floor with the unfortunate party.

SO... what can the poor saps do about it? I mean, if they do their research like good little peons, what tactics and tricks can these characters use to AVOID the seemingly inevitable TPK?

Unfortunately, encountering the dragon and obtaining at least one item from his hoard is pretty much essential to the plot as written.