Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

Storm Raven · Jul 23, 2005

The Shaman said:
Is McDonalds the 'best' food because of its sales figures?

For the market segment that McDonalds represents, probably. Lots of people forget what McDonalds (and its subsequent imitators like Burger King and Wendy's) mostly replaced: the greasy spoon style restaurant. The truck stop/road house.

Some of those places were real good. Most had food that tasted like total crap, and cleanliness standards that would make a pig frightened. If you knew where the good ones were, you could eat well. Otherwise, you were left guessing. In the town I live in, I know which restaurants are good and which are bad. But if I'm driving from Virginia to Illinois, and need to stop in Nowhereville, Tennesee for lunch, I'm probably going to go with McDonalds or the equivalent, because I'll know what I'm getting.

Gentlegamer · Jul 23, 2005

Coming soon: film documentary "Super Size Me" documenting one gaming group's use of "rules heavy" RPGs and the adverse affects it has on their gaming.

woodelf · Jul 24, 2005

Joshua Dyal said:
And I did it without using fancy words like orthogonal (what's wrong with perpendicular, anyway?)

Perpendicular is a strictly-geometric term. Orthogonal can be a geometric term, but is more often a statistical term. It is meaningless to refer to two qualities as "perpendicular"--they have no geometric relationship, not being shapes or objects or anything of the sort. However, two qualities can have an orthogonal relationship, because all that means is that they are unrelated.

Akrasia · Jul 24, 2005

woodelf said:
Perpendicular is a strictly-geometric term. Orthogonal can be a geometric term, but is more often a statistical term. It is meaningless to refer to two qualities as "perpendicular"--they have no geometric relationship, not being shapes or objects or anything of the sort. However, two qualities can have an orthogonal relationship, because all that means is that they are unrelated.

You're going off on a tangent here.

woodelf · Jul 24, 2005

Remathilis said:
Yes. Exactly. Its about power.

A RH system gives more power to the players because they have a firmer grip on what they can do and have rules they can use to do them.

A RL system gives more power to the DM because he can adjunctate the game without being pounded to death by hundreds of rules.

I doubt there will ever be a happy medium.

Absolutely not true. What is unquestionably true is that a rules-heavy system gives more power to the rules, and thus less to the players (collectively--including the GM), while a rules-lite system gives more power to the players (collectively--including the GM) and reserves less for the rules. How the players' power is distributed between the GM and others is almost completely unrelated to how much power the ruleset has, at least theoretically. In practice, i don't think i've ever seen a really crunchy system that gave the non-GM players much power. All the games that i know of that give the players disproportionate power (more than the GM, that is) are also extremely rules-lite.

[And, to hopefully forestall arguments, i challenge the notion that D&D3E is player-enabling. All the players are expected to abide strictly by the rules. Only the GM is explicitly allowed to defy the rules, even if it is discouraged. So, there is nothing the players can do that the GM can't and there is something the GM can do that the players can't. Clearly, the GM has more power than the players. This is not necessarily the case in all RPGs--there are RPGs where all have equal "rights", and there are even those where the players at least occasionally have more power. In fact, i think i can dig up at least one RPG where the player has the lion's share of power.]

Staffan · Jul 24, 2005

Akrasia said:
You're going off on a tangent here.

Only to a certain degree.

fanboy2000 · Jul 24, 2005

woodelf said:
Absolutely not true. What is unquestionably true is that a rules-heavy system gives more power to the rules,

Rules have no power by themselves.

There is no unquestionably true statement you can make about people's hobbies, because there will always be someone for whom the statement is not true.

BryonD · Jul 24, 2005

woodelf said:
Absolutely not true. What is unquestionably true is that a rules-heavy system gives more power to the rules, and thus less to the players (collectively--including the GM), while a rules-lite system gives more power to the players (collectively--including the GM) and reserves less for the rules. How the players' power is distributed between the GM and others is almost completely unrelated to how much power the ruleset has, at least theoretically. In practice, i don't think i've ever seen a really crunchy system that gave the non-GM players much power. All the games that i know of that give the players disproportionate power (more than the GM, that is) are also extremely rules-lite.

[And, to hopefully forestall arguments, i challenge the notion that D&D3E is player-enabling. All the players are expected to abide strictly by the rules. Only the GM is explicitly allowed to defy the rules, even if it is discouraged. So, there is nothing the players can do that the GM can't and there is something the GM can do that the players can't. Clearly, the GM has more power than the players. This is not necessarily the case in all RPGs--there are RPGs where all have equal "rights", and there are even those where the players at least occasionally have more power. In fact, i think i can dig up at least one RPG where the player has the lion's share of power.]

Man, that's just depressing.
I feel sorry for anyone who's gaming experience has boxed them in to this conclusion.
Honestly.

Professor Phobos · Jul 24, 2005

Well, I'm partly happy I didn't see this thread until it had already gone on waaaay to long to read, and I'm kind of dissapointed.

In any event, as per the original claim, Dancey is full of crap, except for one point.

It can take just as long to create a character. At least for me, I tend to create them very carefully, so it can take just as long.

As for rules arguments, my god, I haven't had one in two years. I suppose I could be one of those very rare improvisational GMs, but I don't make up rules on the fly, and I'm not sure how lots of rules help you improvise situations any better. Most GM improvisation is coming up with responses to player action, not coming up with ways to adjudicate player action.

WizarDru · Jul 24, 2005

woodelf said:
[And, to hopefully forestall arguments, i challenge the notion that D&D3E is player-enabling. All the players are expected to abide strictly by the rules. Only the GM is explicitly allowed to defy the rules, even if it is discouraged. So, there is nothing the players can do that the GM can't and there is something the GM can do that the players can't. Clearly, the GM has more power than the players. This is not necessarily the case in all RPGs--there are RPGs where all have equal "rights", and there are even those where the players at least occasionally have more power. In fact, i think i can dig up at least one RPG where the player has the lion's share of power.]

I'm not quite sure how challenging a notion is designed to forestall arguments, instead of incite them, but I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, either.

I think also that you're confusing player power with player control. If the DM is designing the scenario, populating it with NPCs and establishing a plot, then I'm not sure he actually deserves the title 'DM', 'GM', 'Judge' or what have you. If he is, then regardless of his "power" within the rules, he will always have much more power than a player can, because HE decides for the greater part when conflicts will take place and the environment it takes place in.

None of which really much matters towards Dancey's original comments, IMHO.

Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

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