Character Build: Dragon Disciple

I'm curious what is change to the DD is needed to make this a viable sorcerer class.
It seems everyone is dead set against it due to limiting a sorcerer to 5th level spells and ending up having subpar melee.
I really like the idea of a sorcerer/DD as a natural progression in a character driven sense after 10th level.
This would be a purely secondary caster in the group not the primary.
He'd have major focus on firebased offensive spells and brass dragon as type and take the Engery exchange(actual name escapes me atm) feat cold to diversify the firebased spells he gets.
Would simply changing the levels that have no bonus spells to +1 to spellcaster level not give him enuff of boost bringing him up to acess to 6th level spells.

Would this change just be to much to be overpowerd?
I guess i really like the fluff of this idea just not sure how the crunch will hold up.

bloodydrake said:

I'm curious what is change to the DD is needed to make this a viable sorcerer class.

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You definitely need to advance spellcasting ability. The bonus spells do next to nothing for a sorcerer (unless you are epic level, or very high already).

Would simply changing the levels that have no bonus spells to +1 to spellcaster level not give him enuff of boost bringing him up to acess to 6th level spells.

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That's what I would do as well. Or just give them a +1 effective level every odd level up.

Would this change just be to much to be overpowerd?

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It's hard to say. This would allow for a pretty buff fighter with decent spells. Maybe there should be some additional prerequisites in that case.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

At 10th level the DD gets full Half-Dragon benefits... without the LA. At least, I think so.

Bye
Thanee

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Absolutely. But as a tank, why wait 11 levels, when you could be immune to <element>, breathing <element>, and have a likely +10 to hit /+12 damage (before any magic add-ons) at ECL 5?

~Rav

RaVan said:

Absolutely. But as a tank, why wait 11 levels, when you could be immune to <element>, breathing <element>, and have a likely +10 to hit /+12 damage (before any magic add-ons) at ECL 5?

~Rav

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Because you'll only have 2 hit dice. And a really bad will save.

moritheil said:

Go for Paladin/Sorc and put an 18 into Charisma. That way your save bonuses will be huge (+5 to all from Divine Grace alone once DD gives you +2 Cha.) If you're tanking, you're already taking damage, so you'd better minimize any incidental spell damage you take. Look into taking Pious Templar later for Mettle, too.

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What's interesting about the Paladin/Sorc is that you can use Enlarge Person on yourself and have it affect your mount. Right there in the "Share Spells" description - it will affect it even though the spell doesn't normally affect magical beasts.

Shield is another good one to share with your mount. And from your Paladin list, the 2-for-1 Cure Light Wounds.

IcyCool said:

Because you'll only have 2 hit dice. And a really bad will save.

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We're talking about a tank. Tanks don't get good will saves, that's the compromise. But HP's are a concern. You will start off way behind, but with the heightened Con you'll mostly catch up in 5 levels. Here's a break down-

Rolled Abilities - Adjusted
Str 18 - 26 (+8)
Dex 13 - 13 (+1)
Con 18 - 20 (+5)
Int 12 - 14 (+2)
Wis 15 - 15 (+2)
Cha 10 - 12 (+1)

Half-Dragon ECL 5
Starting AC Before Add-ons 15
Barb/Fighter d12
HP (Average) 28
Fort +8
Ref +1
Will +2

Ranger d10
HP (Average) 25
Fort +8
Ref +4
Will +2

Normal race:
Reg AC (Before Add-ons) 11
Lev 5 Reg Barb HP 56
Lev 5 Reg Fighter HP 46
Lev 5 Reg Ranger HP 44

And here are the Ave HP's at ECL 10
Reg Barb HP 106
Reg Fighter HP 95
Reg Ranger HP 84
Half-Dragon HP 89

But if you're really worried about saves, consider this Paladin build. Hmm, Half-Dragon Paladin of Bahamut...

Paladin (switch Int-Wis-Cha)
Adjusted
Str 26 +8
Dex 13 +1
Con 20 +5
Int 12 +1
Wis 14 +2
Cha 15 +2

Starting AC Before Add-ons 15
HD d12
HP (Average) 28
Fort +10
Ref +3
Will +4

So in summary, your Half-Dragon tank will likely spend her hard earned cache on things that will increase her Con and HP, and in the beginning at least, will want to be good friends with the party healer. She will probably have Bear's Endurance cast on her more often than Bull's Strength. Upside is, she won't have to survive as many rounds in combat and she doesn't have to spend her hard earned cache on exponentially expensive weapons to get great hits and damage (automatic +4) and exponentially expensive amulets of natural armor (automatic +4). Also, she can swim and climb in armor if need be, and doesn't worry so much about those pesky save-or-die fortitude rolls.

Yes, it's a compromise from a standard Fighter or Barbarian Tank, but still, a much better tank than a Dragon Disciple no matter how you look at it.

~Rav

One can also make a Monk/Sorceror, taking Ascetic Mage (levels stack to AC bonus, add Cha bonus to AC instead of Wis) and Force of Personality (add Cha to Will instead of Wis).

Natural Armor, ability to cast Mage Armor and Shield, level bonus to AC and Cha + Dex to AC.

I pesonally like the Sorc4/barb1/DDx build. It gives 2nd level spells, access to true strike (use with power attack for a big hit), shield, and blur at second level; plus you have a 4th level caster ability. You lose 1 BAB vs the sorc1/barb4 or sorc1/barb2/ftr2 builds. You get a better (IMHO) spell selection that a bard build.

I have been thinking of playing a DD in a campaign (replacing a charcter that isn't working out too well) currently 12th level. The charcter I cam up with is Barb1/Sorc4/DD7, weilds a spiked chain (has combat reflexes and improved disarm) and has true strike, shield, endure elements (flavor partly), and blur for spells. The ability increases and added natural armor allow for a good AC and hp (even with the 4d4 for sroc) to provide staying power. The character has decent fort and will saves, reflex is lacking, but high HP help that.

Overall, not too shaby a character.

pbd said:

I pesonally like the Sorc4/barb1/DDx build. It gives 2nd level spells, access to true strike (use with power attack for a big hit), shield, and blur at second level; plus you have a 4th level caster ability. You lose 1 BAB vs the sorc1/barb4 or sorc1/barb2/ftr2 builds. You get a better (IMHO) spell selection that a bard build.

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I made such a proposal on the first page. I would pick Wraithstrike for 2nd level, tho.
Nasty little spell that one is.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

I made such a proposal on the first page. I would pick Wraithstrike for 2nd level, tho.
Nasty little spell that one is.

Bye
Thanee

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yeah, I was weighing in with my support, although I went back and I like he Sorc1/bard4/x quite a bit also.

Unfortunately, we use core only, so no wraithstrike :\